Last modified: January 16, 2010
Outlands College of Heralds
January 16, 2010
From the Office of the Castle Herald
Baron Randal Carrick
UNTO the Outlands College of Heralds, our respected friends and colleagues who give freely of their time to provide commentary, and all others who come by these letters, on this 16th day of January, A.S. xxxxiv (2010 CE), does Don Randal Carrick send greetings on behalf of The Honourable Lady Marie de Blois, White Stag Principal Herald.
Due to my travel and event schedule over the next two months, the submissions deadlines will be enforced such that only submissions received by the first of the month will be considered for that month's LoP. the earlier you can get submissions to me, the happier I'll be.
Here follows the Kingdom of the Outlands Letter of Presentation for January 2010. Your comments and suggestions are always welcome. Errors found herein are my sole responsibility. Anyone may comment upon the items found herein, and e-mail commentary to the herald's commentary list is encouraged. Please have comments on items contained herein to Rampart Herald by February 26, 2010, for the decision meeting tentatively scheduled for February 27, 2009, to be held at Kingdom Herald's and Scribe's Symposium in Caerthe. As a reminder, the College of Arms requests commentary on all items, including appeals.
Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
January 2010 Letter of Presentation
February 2010 Letter of Response
February 2010 Letter of Intent
May 2010 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page
1. Carola von Naumburg. Badge Resubmission (Kingdom). (Fieldless) on a tower per pale gules and Or, a griffin head counterchanged.
(Hawk's Hollow) Submitter's name was registered on the September 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2009/09/09-09lar.html) via the Outlands. Submitter's previous badge submission, (Fieldless) on a tower gules, a griffon head Or, was returned by Rampart on the Outlands October 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-09-lop/0910-lor.html), stating: "Conflict with (Fieldless) On a castle gules a griffin segreant Or (Griffin Wharvager, 01/2008 Atlantia), only the single difference for Fieldlessness (RfS X.4.a.iii) as Castles and Towers are not significantly different. It may be possible to get a letter of permission to conflict, as this is a recent registration."
Submitter has counterchanged the badge to clear the conflict.
2. Carola von Naumburg. Device Resubmission (Laurel). Quarterly gules and Or, 2 griffin heads erased and a tower counterchanged.
(Hawk's Hollow) Submitter's name was registered on the September 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2009/09/09-09lar.html) via the Outlands. Her previous device, Gules, two griffin heads erased Or, and a tower argent, was returned on the same LoAR, stating:
This device is returned for conflict with the badge of the Barony of Caer Mear, for their Order of the Pharos, Gules, atop a grey granite tower a copper brazier enflamed proper. The brazier is a maintained charge. Therefore, this is a conflict with only a single CD for the addition of the griffin's heads.
Please instruct the submitter that, on resubmission, the erasing of any heads should be closer to the style described on the cover letter to the November 2001 LoAR:
Therefore, for purposes of recreating period armorial style for erasing, the erasing should (1) have between three and eight jags; (2) have jags that are approximately one-sixth to one-third the total height of the charge being erased; and (3) have jags that are not straight but rather are wavy or curved.
Submitter has added a quarterly field and counterchanged the charges to clear the conflict, and drawn the griffon heads as recommended.
3. Dagorix Nantonignos. New Name and Device. Or, between two wolf's pawprints, a bend sinister wavy azure.
(Unser Hafen) Gender: Male. Submitter desires his name to be authentic for the language/culture of Gaul.
[Dagorix] is from: Evans, D. Ellis. 1967. Gaulish Personal names. Oxfort University Press. P.189, header "Dago-, Daco-" and Whatmough, Joshua. 1970. The dialects of Ancient Gaul. Harvard University Press, Cambridge. P. 1271.
[Nantonignos] is from: "Name Constructions in Gaulish" by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (Acadamy of St. Gabriel) (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/gaulish/) in the "Idionym + Patronym with <-(I)GNOS>" section.
4. Edmund Peregrine. New Name and Device. Gules, in fess two keys palewise, wards to chief, and a bordure semy of bezants Or.
(Citadel) Gender: Unspecified. Submitter will not accept major changes to the name.
[Edmund] - Documented from the Feastday of St. Edmund Rich, November 20, 1242, http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=3048. This site notes that the saint was born on November 30, 1180.
[Peregrine] - the name Geoffrey Peregrine was registered on the October 1993 LoAR via An Tir (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1993/10/lar.html) with no other comment. (Castle Note: Submitter also includes cites from the Internet Surname Database, but provides no copies or URL, so that information is not included here. A quick search of the O&A shows 116 instances of "Peregrine" being registered as a name element, most recently in March of 2009).
5. Elena Isabella de Glastonbury. Device Resubmission (Kingdom). Vair sable and Or, two roses proper entwined a rapier inverted argent.
(Unser Hafen) Submitter's name was returned by Laurel on the LoAR (), and resubmitted to Laurel on the Outlands 2009 LoI ().
Submitter's previous device, Sable, a rapier inverted argent entwined of two roses gules, slipped and leafed vert, a bordure gules, was returned on the Outlands January 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2008-12-lop/0901-lor.html), stating: "This device has been returned for contrast issues: there is poor contrast between the flowers and the field (colour-on-colour), and the stems are very thin. Additionally, the silvery-colour used to paint the rapier is unneeded, white is more easily recognised and the silvery-colour is a very dark grey which faded into the field. Artistic notes: the term 'garden rose' is unnecessary, a Rose is still a Rose; proper colouring for rapiers and swords is "argent, a hilt Or."
Submitter's next device submission, Or, a chief triangular sable, overall a rapier inverted proper entwined of two roses gules slipped and leafed vert, all within a bordure gules, was returned by Rampart on the Outlands August 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-07-lop/0908-lor.html), stating: "The resbumission addresses some of the stylistic issues with the previous device while introducing more of it's own. The entertwined roses are now so thick as to be difficult to identify, and serve to isolate the proper (argent) sword from the Or field (metal on metal), and would not be easily reproduced from the emblazon. Additionally, the chief triangular should be redrawn to accurately reflect the charge: if it is a chief, it should be below the bordure; if it is a chevron inverted, it should come further down the field and have a shallower angle; if it is a pile, it should extend to the base of the field. Finally, if the sword is overall, it should overlap the bordure as well as the chief. For all of these reasons, this device is returned for a redraw."
Submitter has removed the chief and bordure, and chosen a neutral field to address the contrast issues from the previous submissions.
6. Fontaine dans Sable, Barony of. New Badge. Argent, an hour glass proper within eight fleur-de-lis in annulo bases outward azure.
(Fontaine dans Sable) Submitter's name was registered on the March 2004 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2004/03/) via the Outlands. This badge is to be associated with the Order of the Houre Glass.
7. Fontaine dans Sable, Barony Of. New Badge. Azure, a battle axe bendwise sinister argent blade to base and distilling gouttes gules within eight fleur-de-lis in annulo bases outward argent.
(Fontaine dans Sable) Submitter's name was registered on the March 2004 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2004/03/) via the Outlands. This badge is to be associated with the Order of the Silver Axe.
8. Halvar Half-Hand. Device Resubmission (Kingdom). Per saltire gules and sable, a fess embattled between three bezants and a crossbow reversed Or.
(Hawks Hollow) Submitter's name was registered on the May 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/05/09-05lar.html) via the Outlands.
Submitter's first device, Per saltire gules and sable, on a plate a crossbow vert, was returned by Kingdom on the January 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2008-12-lop/0901-lor.html), stating: "Returned for conflict with Per pale sable and vert, on a plate a leaf vert. (Artemius of Hunters Home [2/07, Æthelmearc]). The change in the field grants a single Clear Difference; however there is not a Clear Difference between the tertiary charges, so this ends up conflicting."
Submitter's next device, Per saltire gules and sable, a fess embattled between three bezants fesswise and a crossbow inverted Or, was returned by Kingdom on the December 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-11-lop/0912-lor.html), stating: "The fess is too high on the escutcheon. Almost ½ the height of the escutcheon is below the fess and less than ¼ above. The fess (including embattlements) should occupy the center 1/3 of the escutcheon. This would give the bezants "room to breathe", and would require the crossbow to be drawn slightly smaller. Return for redraw."
Submitter has re-drawn the device accordingly.
9. Olifer Einarsson. New Name and Device. Per pale argent and sable two cranes respectant counterchanged.
(Drygestan) Gender: not specified. Submitter cares most about the sound of the name, desiring that the given name sound like "Oliver". Changes accepted.
[Olifer] - The Surnames of Scotland, G.F. Black, p. 637, header "Oliver" lists Walter Olifer c.1180; in Shetland the Norse name Olaf (O.N. Oleifr) has been merged in Oliver.
[Einarsson] - Einarr is found in The Old Norse Name, Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, p. 9, meaning "son of Einarr". Per Geirr Bassi, the suffix -son "son" or -dottir "daughter" is added to the genetive case of the father's given name. The genitive is formed as follows ... -rr> -rs: Geirr> Geirsson ~ Geirsdottir.
10. Rams Keep, College of. Appeal of return of Name by Kingdom of the Outlands, and request for consideration as a hardship.
(Unser Hafen) The name as submitted was returned by Rampart on the Outlands 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-10-lop/0911-lor.html), stating: "Name returned for lack of documentation. Unfortunately, the word "Keep" as part of a place name is, without additional documentation showing a dated use as part of a place name, considered "SCA Compatible." Per the May 2008 Cover Letter, all SCA-Compatible status was revoked beginning with the May 2009 decision meetings, and all names must be fully documented without recourse to SCA-Compatibility. Due to the time it takes to get to a decision meeting, any submissions relying on SCA-Compatibility needed to be in Castle's hands by the beginning of December 2008. As we could find no documentation for the use of the word Keep in place names, the name must again be returned. Submitter is encouraged to appeal, with documentation of the circumstances surrounding the time gap between the previous submission and this submission, in order to be considered for a hardship exception under the old rules."
Submitter submits this appeal with copious documentation, which is summarized as follows:
The Members and Officers of the Incipient College of Rams Keep & the
Barony of Unser Hafen respectfully appeals the November 2009 decision of Rampart
Herald to return the name and device of the incipient College of Ram’s Keep, a
protectorate of the Barony, and Hereby requests that the College of Arms make a
hardship exception for the College Branch Name and allow it to be registered
under the pre-may 2008 convention of allowing the “SCA Compatible” name
element of “Keep.”
The reason that the Barony and College believe that a hardship case is
applicable is that the resubmission should have occurred in 2005. But, due to
offer change over in the Barony and College, neither the college’s officers
nor the Baronial Herald was aware of the issue until early 2009 – at which
point they signed petition as soon as they could and turned in a resubmission.
As a College within the Barony of Unser Hafen, we have been using the name
“Ram’s Keep” for at least 6 years.
support of this request we present the following documentation.
Attached, you should have a copy of every piece of paperwork I have been
able to gather from numerous sources regarding the submission of the Name &
Device of the College of Rams Keep.
This missive should contain: (15
submission; Outlands Name form. December 12, 2009 (1 page)
letter (2 Pages)
from Her Excellency, Countess Rosalind of Wellmark, Baroness of Unser Hafen
Explaining the history & some of the issues the submission has encountered (1 page)
I have of the Original Submission (2004): (4 pages)
Submission Form (02/01/2004)
of Device Submission Form (02/01/2004)
of Return (May 2004)
Lack of Petition, lack of Laurel Leaves in the Device.
letter was only seen by the Seneschal of the Branch, Susan Woodard, in 2009.
Theresea’s letter of taking the Office (2005)
To document the change in office, which is one of the causes of the delayed
Keep also experienced numerous office changes – though I am not very familiar
Resubmission 1: (2 pages)
submission was returned because the laurel wreath was not round enough &
because the name had not been resubmitted with the device (as the Seneshal was
under the impression it was already registered).
of a Photocopy of the Petition to register the Name & Device.
Printout of Rampart’s November 2009 Letter of Response (3 pages).
With the above documentation I hope to prove that it was not the College of Rams Keep’s fault, but rather beaurocratic mistakes that have prevented the branch name “The College of Rams Keep” and their device from being submitted in a timelier manner back in 2005. Therefore I request that the pre-may 2008 precedence, which allows the term “keep” to be used in a branch name, be used in making the decision for this submission.
11. Violante d'Atayde. Device Resubmission (Laurel). Gules, a winged gynosphinx rampant contourney Or.
(Citadel) Submitter's name was registered on the October 2008 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2008/10/08-10lar.html) via the Outlands. Her device, Gules, a chevron rayonny Or, was returned by Laurel on the same letter, stating "This device is in conflict with the device of Mar Arthursson, Gules, a chevron couped Or. We do not grant difference for couping an ordinary. Therefore, there is only a single CD for the change of type from a chevron couped to a chevron rayonny."
Submitter then submitted Gules, on a cross throughout cotised Or another cross throughout sable, a bordure Or on the Outlands March 2009 LoP (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-03-lop/0903-lop.html), which was returned by Rampart on the April 2009 Outlands LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-03-lop/0904-lor.html), stating "Concerns were raised that this approaches the complexity limit with three tinctures and four charges (a total of seven 'items'); this is not cause for return, however. The coitses were considered extremely thin, but thickening them would result in the crosses becoming too thin as a result of running out of space. Additionally, this violates RfS VIII.1.c.ii (layer limit), as cotices are considered to be "on a cross Or a cross gules", a third cross adds the third layer, and the bordure adds a fourth (Gareth of Wyke, West 07/92). A less complex redesign is suggested."
Submitter then submitted Per Chevron inverted Or and gules, a chief triangular sable on the Outlands August 2009 LoP (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-08-lop/0908-lop.html), which was sent to Laurel by Rampart on the September 2009 Outlands LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-08-lop/0909-lor.html). (Castle Note: Laurel has not yet ruled on this LoI, but commenters find conflict with the badge of Joanne of Puffin Cliff (reg. Aug 87 via the West), Per chevron inverted azure and gules, a chevron inverted Or).
This is another complete redesign.
12. Wolf von der Muhle. New Name and Device. Vert, on a pile between a pair of wings argent a triple-arched bridge sable.
(Citadel) Gender: Male. Submitter cares most about the language/culture of the name, left undefined. Submitter will not accept major changes to the name.
[Wolf] - Submitter includes a printout from German Given Names from 1495 (www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann/names/german1495.htm) dated 2/5/2003 showing 1 instance of the spelling [Wolff]. However, this site no longer exists to verify this information (Castle Note: German Names from Nürnberg, 1497 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/german/nurnberg1497.html) shows 1 instance with the spelling [Wolf] as a masculine given name in the surrounding areas).
[von der Muhle] - Submitter includes a printout from "the Genealogical Tree of Anna von der Muhle" (http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Th.J.F.Schalke/godfried/6.html) shows Anna von der Muhle born in 1580.
Thus ends the January 2010 Letter of
Color Emblazon Sheet
January 2010 Letter of Presentation
February 2010 Letter of Response
February 2010 Letter of Intent
May 2010 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page