Last modified: November 17, 2009


Outlands College of Heralds

November 17, 2009
From the Office of the Castle Herald
Baron Randal Carrick
castle@outlandsheralds.org

UNTO the Outlands College of Heralds, our respected friends and colleagues who give freely of their time to provide commentary, and all others who come by these letters, on this 17th day of November,  A.S. xxxxiv (2009 CE), does Don Randal Carrick send greetings on behalf of The Honourable Lady Marie de Blois, White Stag Principal Herald.

 

Here follows the Kingdom of the Outlands Letter of Presentation for November 2009. Your comments and suggestions are always welcome. Errors found herein are my sole responsibility.  Anyone may comment upon the items found herein, and e-mail commentary to the herald's commentary list is encouraged. Please have comments on items contained herein to Rampart Herald by December 15, 2009, for the decision meeting tentatively scheduled for December 16, 2009.  As a reminder, the College of Arms requests commentary on all items, including appeals.


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1. Andrew von Otelingen.  Device Resubmission (Laurel).  Argent, on a pile azure a fleur-de-lis argent, all within a bordure azure.

(Unser Hafen)  Submitter's name was registered on the May 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2009/05/09-05lar.html) via the Outlands.

 

Submitter's previous device, Argent, on a pile azure a fleur-de-lis argent, was returned by Laurel on the same letter, stating: "This device conflicts with the device of Roane Fairegae of Lochlann, Argent, on a pile throughout azure a seal [Phoca vitulina] haurient argent, and with the device of Richard FitzGilbert, Argent, on a pile throughout azure a sun Or. In each case, there is a single CD for the changes to the tertiary charges. It also conflicts with the device of Aubree Duquesne de Bellemare, Argent, on a pile throughout issuant from sinister azure, a fleur-de-lys Or with a CD for the change of position of the pile, but no CD for the change of only the tincture of the tertiary charge."

 

Submitter has added a bordure to clear the conflict.

 

In addition, both Wieslaw z Krakowa and Andrew von Otelingen have included letters of permission for each other to conflict, given the close similarity of their device submissions.

 

2.  Briatiz d'Andrade. Change of Primary Name from Kathryn Brian Chevreuil and New Badge. (Fieldless) a swan rousant to sinister ermine.

(Caer Galen) Changes Accepted.  Submitter desires to change her name and retain her current name as an alternate.

 

The submitter’s current registered name, Kathryn Brian Chevreuil, was registered on the September 1996 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1996/09/lar.html) via the Outlands. 

Briatiz: Portuguese Feminine Names from Lisbon, 1565 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/portuguese/fem1565.html) documents 59 occurrences of this feminine given name in this spelling from a tax roll of Lisbon, 1565.

 

D’Andrade: : Portuguese Feminine Names from Lisbon, 1565 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/portuguese/fem1565.html) documents six occurrences of this surname in this spelling from a tax roll of Lisbon, 1565.  

 

3.  Caer Galen, Barony of. Order Name Resubmission (Kingdom) - Order of the Book and Harp.

(Caer Galen)  Changes AcceptedThe previous submission, Order of the Storytellers of Caer Galen, was returned by Rampart on the July 2006 LOR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2006-06-lop/0607-lor.html). This is a total revision. The branch name was registered as the Shire of Caer Galen in May 1980 and was updated to the Barony of Caer Galen in January 2004.  

This order name follows the pattern “thing & thing” as defined in “Project Ordensnamen” by Meradudd Cethin (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/), which lists as examples of this type the Orders of  the Ship and Crescent, Ship and Shell, and Tower and Sword. “Medieval Secular Order Names” by Juliana de Luna (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/OrderNames/) lists several categories into which period secular Order names fall. One of these is the category “Two Charges”. Some cited examples of this type of Order name are the Orders of the Fish and Falcon and the Hound and Wreath.  

Both the Book and the Harp are recognized heraldic charges, frequently registered in SCA heraldry.

4.  Caer Galen, Barony of.  Order Name Resubmission (Laurel) - Order of St. Louis with the Staff.

(Caer Galen) Changes Accepted. The previous submission, Order of the Curmudgeons of Caer Galen, was returned by Laurel on the November 2006 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2006/11/06-11lar.html). This is a total revision. The branch name was registered as the Shire of Caer Galen in May 1980 and was updated to the Barony of Caer Galen in January 2004.  

This order name follows the pattern “name + thing” as defined in “Project Ordensnamen” by Meradudd Cethin (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/), which lists as examples of this type the Orders of  Our Lady of the Thistle, St. James of the Sword, and  St George of the Cross Vermaeille. “Medieval Secular Order Names” by Juliana de Luna (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/OrderNames/) lists several categories into which period secular Order names fall. One of these is the category “Saint + Other Element”. A cited example of this type of Order name is the Order of Saint George with the Pelican.  

There are many saints named Louis; the best known is King Louis IX of France (1215-1270; canonized 1297) (The Catholic Encyclopedia - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09368a.htm).  

The staff is a recognized heraldic charge, frequently registered in SCA heraldry.

5.  Caer Galen, Barony of.  Order Name Resubmission (Laurel) - Order of St. Michael with the Harp.  

(Caer Galen) Changes Accepted. The previous submission, Order of the Militant Bards, was returned by Laurel on the November 2006 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2006/11/06-11lar.html). This is a total revision. The branch name was registered as the Shire of Caer Galen in May 1980 and was updated to the Barony of Caer Galen in January 2004.  

This order name follows the pattern “name + thing” as defined in “Project Ordensnamen” by Meradudd Cethin (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/), which lists as examples of this type the Orders of  Our Lady of the Thistle, St. James of the Sword, and  St George of the Cross Vermaeille. “Medieval Secular Order Names” by Juliana de Luna (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/OrderNames/) lists several categories into which period secular Order names fall. One of these is the category “Saint + Other Element”. A cited example of this type of Order name is the Order of Saint George with the Pelican.  

There are many saints named Michael; the best known is the Archangel Michael, the warrior of the angelic host (The Catholic Encyclopedia - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10275b.htm).  

The harp is a recognized heraldic charge, frequently registered in SCA heraldry.

6.  Elena Isabella de Glastonbury.  Name Resubmission (Laurel).  

(Unser Hafen) Gender: Female.  Submitter cares most about the language/culture of the name, defined as "Tudor period England".  Submitter will not accept Major changes to the name. Submitter's previous name, Elena of Glaestingeberia, was returned by Laurel on the May 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2009/05/09-05lar.html), stating: 

Conflict with Elynor of Glastonbury. Elena and Elynor are variants of the same name, and they are not significantly different in sound. Glæstingeberia is an earlier form of Glastonbury, and these two forms are also not significantly different in sound.

The LoI noted that the byname was originally submitted as of Glastonbury, but changed in kingdom when no dates for Glastonbury could be found. Pelican Emeritus notes that "An anthology of Chancery English has <Glastonbury> in a document dated "before 1421", which means it's sometime in the early 15th C."

Submitter has added the name element Isabella in order to clear this conflict.

Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/reaneyAG.html)  

[Elena] - 1187 Ludford;

[Isabella] -  Is1201 Bonnet; 1274 Paul; 1275 Chipp; 1279 Gosset; 1296 Welton; 1297 Illsley; 1311 Kell; 1312 Wells; 1327 Albert; 1330 Binley; 1332 Hicken; 1337 Stile; 1364 Shimpling; 1366 Windmill; 1379 Vickerman; 1381 Jobbinson; 1388 Pleader; 1428 Virgin

[Glastonbury] - From the LoAR - "Pelican Emeritus notes that “An anthology of Chancery English has <Glastonbury> in a document dated “before 1421”, which means it’s sometime in the early 15th C.”

7.  Fontaine dans Sable, Barony of. Badge Resubmission (Laurel). Argent, in fess an ewer reversed sable, a three-tiered fountain spouting azure and an ewer sable all within an orle of fleur-de-lis bases outward azure.

(Fontaine dans Sable)  Submitter's name was registered in March 2004 via the Outlands.  This badge is to be associated with the Order of the Selchie.

 

Castle was unable to find citation for any previous badge related to this order name.

 

8.  Halvar Half-Hand. Device Resubmission (Kingdom). Per saltire gules and sable, a fess embattled between three bezants fesswise and a crossbow inverted Or.

(Caerthe) Submitter's name was registered on the May 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/05/09-05lar.html) via the Outlands.

 

Submitter's previous device, Per saltire gules and sable, on a plate a crossbow vert, was returned by Kingdom on the January 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2008-12-lop/0901-lor.html), stating: "Returned for conflict with Per pale sable and vert, on a plate a leaf vert. (Artemius of Hunters Home [2/07, Æthelmearc]). The change in the field grants a single Clear Difference; however there is not a Clear Difference between the tertiary charges, so this ends up conflicting."

 

This submission is a complete redesign.

 

9.  Hulan Kiyat.  Name and Device Resubmission.  Sable, a lion passant argent beneath a chevron argent, all between two quatrafoils argent.

(al-Barran) Gender: Female.  Submitter cares most about the language/culture of the name, defined as "Mongolia 1400's".Submitter requests that the name be changed to be authentic for "Tibet, 1400's".

 

Submitter's previous name, Suleymahn L'Hilt, and device, Sable, an owl and in chief a mullet of four points, all within a bordure potenty argent , were returned by Kingdom on the July 2003 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2003-05-lop/lor0703.html), stating: "

  1. Client cares most about the Sound, does not care about the gender of the name, and is interested in being authentic for "1400's".
    This name has three major issues, as noted by multiple commentors. First and most minor, Suleymahn was documented as a variant phonetic spelling (aka transliteration) of Soloman/Suliman/Suleyman. However, all of the commentary suggests that a spelling with 'h' is not a reasonable transliteration. Sticking with 'Suleiman', 'Sulayman', or 'Suleyman' would be fairly reasonable, and I would have simply changed it (as it would not affect the sound significantly), except for the other issues.
    Second, combining an Arabic given name and a French byname may not be acceptable. While there is no direct precedent on this issue, combining Arabic with Norse and (separately) with Swiss have both been ruled unacceptable and not registrable. There does not, in period, seem to have been more contact between the Arabs and the French than there would have been between the Arabs and either the Norse or the Swiss. I might have sent this up for Laurel to make a determination on, except for the third issue.
    Third and most signifcantly, while "L'Hilt" is a French term for an owl, it is not necessarily suitable as a byname in French. Essentially, it makes this name "Suleyman the Owl", which doesn't make much sense as a name. Epithet style bynames tended to be reasonable descriptors of the individual, such as "the tall" or "the red(-haired)" or "crookshanks" or "the good", and would be a physical or behavioral type of description instead of metaphorical or figurative.

    I do have one suggestion of an alternate byname. In the name book written by Dauzat (one of the current standard French name books for SCA heralds, so no photocopy is needed), on page 334 there is the heading "Huleux" (approximately "Hoo-loo"), which is described as "sobriquet d'apres le cri du hibou" (rough translation: "a nickname or epithet after the cry of an owl"), and also lists the forms "Hulet", "Hulin", "Hulot" under that header. However, this suggestion does not address the issue of combining an Arabic given name and a French byname.
    Fortunately, I also have two suggestions on the given name! Looking in "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html#S) by Lord Colm Dubh, I found one "Salemon le Breton, mesuréeur de sel". This would still be a male name, and be pronounced (approximately) "Sah-lay-mon". This source also has the benefit of not requiring photocopies.
    Also, looking in "Flemish Given Names from Bruges, 1400-1600" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/bruges/given-list.html) by Luana de Grood, I found the name "Salomon", which may be closer in both pronunciation and time to what you wanted. Again, this is still a male name. This source does require photocopies/printouts.
    As French names are not my specialty, I won't pretend to certainty, but "Salemon Huleux", "Salomon Huleux", "Salemon Hulot", or "Salomon Hulot" should be acceptable, fully French names.

The following submission was pended:

  1. Suleymahn L'Hilt. New Device. Sable, an owl and in chief a mullet of four points, all within a bordure potenty argent.
    This device is pended, waiting for an acceptable name. When there is an acceptable name, I will send this device up with it.

Both [Hulan] and [Kiyat] are listed in Period Mongol Names (http://members.tripod.com/Mongolian_page/names.html).  The information is apparently distilled from Ghengis Khan, R.P. Lister, 1969.

 

While the previous device was pended and not formally returned, Castle finds no record of a new name submission being attached to the device.  Therefore, since submitter is submitting a different device, the previous device submission will be considered returned as of the July 2003 LoR

 

10.  Jacques Lambert. New Badge. Per bend purpure and vert, a pegasus rampant argent.

(Caerthe) Submitter's name was registered on the January 2004 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2004/01/04-01lar.html) via the Outlands.

 

11.  Rosalind of Wellmark. New Badge. (Fieldless) a cross bottony argent debruised by a cross bottony gules.

(Unser Hafen)  Submitter's name was registered on the September 1992 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1992/09/lar.html) via the Outlands

 

12.  Seóan mac Ruadhrí Ui Ceallacháin. Device Resubmission (Kingdom). Vert, on a chevron argent between three fleams reversed Or, three gouttes de sang.

(al-Barran) Submitter's name was previously submitted to Laurel on the Outlands August 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-07-lop/0908-lor.html)

 

This same device was returned on the Outlands September 2006 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2006-08-lop/0609-lor.html), stating: "Device returned due to lack of name to send it forward with."

 

Submitter's name has been sent to Laurel for determination, and so the device can be resubmitted as-is.

 

13.  Thorfinn Greybeard. Device (Augmentation) Resubmission (Kingdom). Argent, a tree and in saltire a viking bearded axe and a smithing hammer gules, and in augmentation, on a chief chequy gules and argent, three roundels Or.

(Unser Hafen) Submitter's name was registered on the October 1991 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1991/10/lar.html) via the Outlands.

 

Submitters existing device, Argent, a tree and in saltire a viking bearded axe and a smithing hammer gules, was registered on the May 1992 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1992/05/lar.html) via the Outlands.

 

Submitter's previous augmentation, Argent, a tree and in saltire a Viking bearded axe and smithing hammer gules, as an augmentation a canton checky sable and gules charged with three bezants, was returned by Kingdom on the October 2001 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2001-08-lop/lor1001.html), stating: "

[al-Jamal] - (Device): "Blazon fu: *... as an augmentation _on_ a canton ....*"
[Green Anchor] - (Device): "RfS VIII.2.b.iv is pretty clear that a charge of any kind can't be checky of two colors. Since I don't know the significance of this augmentation, I won't suggest possible changes."
[Rouge Scarpe] - (Device Augmentation): ""Augmentations must follow the same rules that regular armory does, according to the new rules on the June 01 cover letter. A canton checky must be checky of good contrast, and this is not, therefore it must be returned. The rule specifically says "Gules, a lion argent, and in augmentation a canton argent charged with a tower Or is not acceptable, as the augmentation internally breaks RfS VIII.2., Armorial Contrast."
[Caer Galen] - (Device): "RfS VIII.2.b.iv: On the augmentation: Elements evenly divided into multiple parts of two different tinctures must have good contrast between their parts, For example, checky argent and gules is acceptable, but checky azure and gules is not [and neither is checky sable and gules - l]."

ACTION: Augmentation Returned for having checky of two colors.

Submitter has redesigned the augmentation to clear the previous reason for return.

 

14.  Unser Hafen, Barony of. Badge Resubmission (Kingdom). (Fieldless) a portcullis vert.

(Unser Hafen) The Branch Name was registered on the October 1985 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1985/10/lar.html) via Atenveldt.

 

Submitter's previous badge submission, Vert, a portcullis within a bordure embattled Or, was returned by Kingdom on the June 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-05-lop/0906-lor.html), stating: "Returned for conflict: Atenveldt, Kingdom of (01/96, Atenveldt) "Vert, a portcullis Or," with one CD for adding the bordure; and with Malcolm MacLeod of Caer Adamant (05/05, East), "Sable, a portcullis and a bordure embattled Or," with one CD for changing the field tincture."

 

Submitter has removed the field and changed the tincture of the portcullis to clear the conflicts.

 

15.  Wieslaw z Krakowa. New Name and Device. Argent, on a pile azure a fleur-de-lis argent, all within a bordure azure, a label Or.

(Unser Hafen) Gender: Male.  Submitter cares most about the language/culture and meaning of the name, defined as "Polish meaning 'Wieslaw from Krakow'".  Submitter will not accept major changes to the name.

 

  “Wieslaw” is submitter's legal middle name (driver's license included)

 Krakow was the historical capital of Poland between 1038-1610 (See attached History of Krakow) http://www.krakow-info.com/krakow.htm

 The “z” in Polish means “from.” Polish grammar modifies the city name when used with “z” from “Krakow” to “Krakowa”. Therefore “Wieslaw from Krakow” would be written in period as “Wieslaw z Krakowa” in Polish.

 “Mateusz z Krakowa” was a philosopher, theologian, and university professor who was born in Krakow between 1345 and 1348.   See attached biography introduction from Prof. Wladyslawa Senki as proof of usage, spelling, and grammar.
I am replacing “Mateusz” with my middle name, “Wieslaw”, resulting in “Wieslaw z Krakowa”.

In addition, both Wieslaw z Krakowa and Andrew von Otelingen have included letters of permission for each other to conflict, given the close similarity of their device submissions.

 

14.  William de Kari. Device Resubmission (Laurel). Per chevron Or semy of hurts and azure, in base a standing balance Or.

(Unser Hafen) Submitter's name was registered on the March 2006 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2006/03/06-03lar.html) via the Outlands.

 

Submitter's previous device, Per chevron Or and azure, three hurts and a standing balance Or, was returned on the September 2007 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2007/09/07-09lar.html), stating: 

"This device is returned for a redraw of the line of division - the per chevron line starts at the per fess point and clearly does not bisect the field. We note that this design blurs the distinction between four co-primary charges and a primary with three secondary charges. Given that there are two types of charges, one type on either side of line of division, this appears to be co-primaries. However, the relative size of the hurts makes them appear more like secondary charges. This blurring is sufficient grounds for return.

This was originally pended on the February 2007 LoAR as the commenters noted that this should be a four co-primary charges - rather than the primary charge and three secondary charges as blazoned on the LoI - but did not indicate that they had conflict checked with four co-primary charges. However, commentary on the pend was almost unanimous that this is a primary charge and three secondary charges. This confusion is indicative of the problem with this particular design - it blurs the distinction between four co-primary charges and a primary charge with three secondary charges."

Submitter has re-drawn the line of partition and increased the number of hurts to address the issues raised by Laurel.

Thus ends the November 2009 Letter of Presentation.

Your servant,

Randal Carrick

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November 2009 Letter of Presentation
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