Last modified: February 10, 2012

Outlands College of Heralds

February 10, 2012 From the Office of the Castle Herald
Sayyidah Khalidah bint Yahya'a
castle@outlandsheralds.org

Unto the Outlands College of Heralds, our respected friends and colleagues who give freely of their time to provide commentary, and all others who come by these letters, on this 10th day of February, A.S. XLV (2012 CE), does Sayyidah Khalidah bint Yahya'a send greetings on behalf of Sheik Omar Mohammud Mirzazadeh, White Stag Principal Herald.

It would assist Castle Herald greatly in the future if you would e-mail a copy of the documentation summary for name submissions along with the paper copies.  It saves having to re-type everything again.  Also, please be sure that you include dates of registration and return for armory for previously registered names and resubmissions of any kind.  If Castle can't find where an item was returned, it may be pended until the information is provided or payment is made for a new submission.

Here follows the Kingdom of the Outlands Letter of Presentation for February 2012. Your comments and suggestions are always welcome. Errors found herein are my sole responsibility.  Anyone may comment upon the items found herein, and e-mail commentary to the herald's commentary list is encouraged. Please have comments on items contained herein to Rampart Herald by March 15, 2012, for the decision meeting tentatively scheduled for March 21, 2012.  As a reminder, the College of Arms requests commentary on all items, including appeals.

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
February 2012 Letter of Presentation
March 2012 Letter of Response
March 2012 Letter of Intent
June 2012 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page

1. Alysandir Keyth. New Name and Device. Argent, a fox couchant regardant, on a chief gules three pallets Or.

(al-Barran) Gender: Male. Submitter will NOT accept MAJOR Changes. Submitter cares most about language/culture, '14th Century Scottish'.

[Alysandir] - '13th & 14th Century Scottish Names' by Symon Freser of Lovat. Revised 18 Dec 2000 by Arval Benicoeur with direction from the Academy of Saint Gabriel. (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/symonFreser/scottish14/scottish14_given.html)

[Keyth] - '13th & 14th Century Scottish Names' by Symon Freser of Lovat. Revised 18 Dec 2000 by Arval Benicoeur with direction from the Academy of Saint Gabriel. (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/symonFreser/scottish14/scottish14_sur.html)

2. Andrew von Otelingen. New Badge. Quarterly azure and argent, a bordure counterchanged.

(Caer Galen). Submitter's Name was registered on the May 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/05/09-05lar.html) via the Outlands.

3. Caerthe, Barony of. Resubmission of Order Name (Kingdom). Order of the Green Tree of Caerthe.

(Caerthe) Submitter's name was registered on the January 1973 LoAR via Laurel.

Submitter's previous submission, Order of the Sapling of Caerthe, was returned on the June 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/06/09-06lar.html) stating:

This is returned for lack of documentation that it follows patterns of period order names. The only possible meta-pattern from the August 2005 Cover Letter that this order name could follow is the heraldic charge meta-pattern: "orders named for heraldic charges or for items that, while not found in period as heraldic charges, may be used as heraldic charges." While there are some very early registration of saplings in SCA armory, there have been none since Laurel ruled on the March 1994 Cover Letter that baby flora are not generally registerable. A sapling is a baby tree, and hence falls under this stricture, so this order name is not registerable under the heraldic charge meta-pattern.

Submitter's previous submission, Order of the Arbor of Caerthe, was returned on the September 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-08-lop/1109-lor.html) stating:

RETURNED for lack of documentation of the order name construction.  Submitter should consult Medieval Secular Order Names by Juliana de Luna (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/order/new/) and document each element of the name accordingly before re-submitting.

Naming practice per article, 'Medieval Secular Order Names' by Juliana de Luna, Siren Herald 2008-2009. Specific usage as "Color + Charge" [eg. Order of the Golden Tree from France (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/OrderNames/Fraternal_Knightly_Organizations.shtml)]. (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/OrderNames/index.shtml)

Submitter has made changes in accordance with the suggestions from September 2011's LoR.

4. Conrad von Zollern. Badge Resubmission (Kingdom) to be associated with alternate name, Justin Timme. Per chevron sable and argent, in pale a demi-sun issuant from the line of division Or, an hourglass sable.

(Hawks Hollow) Submitter's primary name was registered on the March 2002 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/03/02-03lar.html) via the Outlands. Submitter's alternate name was registered on the October 2009 LoAR  (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/10/09-10lar.html) via the Outlands.

Previous Badge, Per chevron sable and argent, in pale a demi-sun issuant from the line of division Or, and an hourglass sable, was returned on the Oct. 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-09-lop/1110-lor.html) stating:

Commenters raised questions about the depiction of the hourglass, noting that it appears to be tipped forward, giving it somewhat of a trian aspect. From the September 2010 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/09/10-09lar.html) "This device is returned because the hourglass is depicted in trian aspect. Having a three-dimensional appearance has long been grounds for return. While certain charges (wedges of cheese, dice, etc.) require trian aspect to be recognizable, the hourglass is not among them."

Submitter has cleared the stated conflict by 'flattening' the hourglass image.

Submitter wishes to retain old badge(s).

5. Conrad von Zollern. Badge Resubmission (Kingdom) to be associated with alternate name, Oshere Ceoluhtes suna. Per saltire Or and argent, within an orle a stag tippant to sinister regardant vert.

(Hawks Hollow)Submitter's primary name was registered on the March 2002 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/03/02-03lar.html) via the Outlands. Submitter's alternate name was sent up to Laurel on the October 2011 LoI (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-09-lop/1110-loi.html).

Submitter's previous badge, (Fieldless) A lion rampant sable, was returned on the June 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-05-lop/0906-lor.html) stating:

RETURNED for multiple conflicts: Buchanan of that Ilk "Or, a lion rampant sable." (12/94, Laurel); Flanders. "Or, a lion rampant sable." (12/94, Laurel)

Submitter's previous badge, Per saltire Or and argent, a stag's head erased vert was returned on the October 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-09-lop/1110-lor.html) stating:

RETURNED for conflict with Geoffrey Biedermann (Feb. 2000 via Ansteorra) "Argent, a stag's head erased vert". There is only 1 CD for the change to the field.

Submitter has cleared the stated conflict by altering the primary charge.

Submitter wishes to retain old badge(s).

6. Conrad von Zollern and Katelin de Irlande. Household Name Resubmission (Kingdom), Prioria Niger Leonis.

(Hawks Hollow) Gender: Doesn't Matter. Submitters will accept changes, cares most about meaning and language, 'Priory of the Black Lion (currently in Latin)'.

Submitters' primary names were registered on the March 2002 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/03/02-03lar.html) via the Outlands and on the May 2008 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2008/05/08-05lar.html) via Artemisia.

Submitters' previous Household name, Priory of the Lion of the Abbey of Saint David, was returned on the October 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-09-lop/1110-lor.html) stating:

Submitters documented the construction of the household name using Project Ordensnamen, by Meradudd Cethin, and included what may be the defining instance of "Priory of" as a household designator.  There are 2 problems with this.  First, Laurel noted that name patters for order names are not appropriate for household names on the September 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2009/09/09-09lar.html), returning the name House Silver Talon (via Aethelmearc):  "To be a house name, this must be justified as an inn sign name. It can't be based on the pattern for an order, as it's not an order. The concept is at some level fine; Margaret's "Comparison of Inn/Shop/House names found London 1473-1600 with those found in the ten shires surrounding London in 1636" (http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~grm/signs-1485-1636.html) has <Eagles foote> before 1600. Mari's "English Sign Names From 17th Century Tradesman's Tokens" (http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/Tokens/) has <Golden Leg>. That's probably close enough to give <talon> the benefit of the doubt..."  Secondly, the designator "Priory of" makes no sense in combination with "Abbey of", and would not have been used in period.  While submitters allow changes, we have no idea how to rescue this particular construction.

Submitters made changes by reducing the number of designators.

Prioria Niger Leonis, Latin form of "Priory/Abbey Black Lion"

Submitter believes Latin grammar is proper, but freely admits it has been many years since he studied Latin: 

Prioria Niger Leonis ~ Black Lion Priory 

Abbatia Niger Leonis ~ Black Lion Abbey 

"To be a house name, this must be justified as an inn sign name." 

[Color+Beast] Black Lion (http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~grm/signs-1485-1636.html)

[Priory] - Owlwycke Priory was on the July 1987 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1987/07/lar.html) via Caid.

[Abbey] - Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd year, 1st tenure) 1992.04 [Order of Black Widows] "Despite the contention in the LoI to the contrary, this name is indeed a conflict with Widow's Abbey per RfS V.2. Addition of an adjective is insufficient difference. Since we can grant no difference for the identifying designator (per V.4.d.), this is a conflict. As noted by Lord Batonvert, 'Abbey' in Widow's Abbey performs the same function as the word 'household' in the same position would. If the word 'household' is the designator in 'Widow's Household', 'abbey' is the designator in 'Widow's Abbey'. As for the argument in the LoI that a black widow is 'a thing, a critter, a two word noun', if the College were to have to consider this submission on those grounds alone this would have to be returned, since the name 'black widow' was not given to the spider until early in the 20th century (the earliest citation is 1927), well after the Society's 1600 cut-off date. (The arachnid is not itself native to the Americas, but was brought into this hemisphere in the late 19th or early 20th century from the Far East.)" [April 1992 LoAR pg. 24 (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1992/04/lar.html)] (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents/CompiledNamePrecedents/OrderAwardNames.html)

Submitters prefer "Priory" as a Household designator, but will also accept "Abbey" or even "House."

7. Diana Doria. New Device. Azure, a loom argent between a pair of flaunches sable with a semy of sparks argent.

(Hawks Hollow) Submitter's name was registered on the August 2004 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2004/08/04-08lar.html) via the Outlands.

Submitter provides documentation for the loom's appearance on the field and use of a loom in heraldry.

'Medieval Italian Heraldry', pg. 3 (http://regalis.com/reg/medherald.htm)

Past Acceptance submission of a 3D item (http://wharrow.outlandsheralds.org/individual_record.php?Letter=g&PersonID=1108)

'The Weaver' from Das Standebuch, 1568 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/De_St%C3%A4nde_1568_Amman_054.png)

8. Eleanor of Penn Forest. New Name and Device. Per pale wavy purpure and argent, a human skull and a staff of Asclepius counterchanged.

(Drygestan) Gender: Female. Submitter will accept changes, cares most about meaning, 'The submitter is from Pennsylvania and is trying to mimic this association, and desires authenticity for language/culture and time period, '13th-15th Century English'.

[Eleanor] - Feminine Given Name in A Dictionary of English Surnames by Talan Gwyneck (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/reaneyAG.html)

[Penn Forest] - No documentation provided but submitter states '[there are] many examples of registered names that are similar [in construction], i.e. Kynan of Wyre Forest.'

9. Ellinor Rose Sanbourne. New Name and Device. Azure, a rose within an orle argent.

(Caerthe) Gender: Female. Submitter will NOT accept MAJOR or MINOR changes. Submitter cares most about spelling, 'Ellinor'.

(al-Barran) Gender: Doesn't Matter. Submitter will accept changes and cares most about culture, '13th Century Japanese'.

[Eishi] - Name Construction in Medieval Japan, Revised Edition by Solveig Throndardottir, pg. 222. Dated 1332, meaning 'Lady'

[Akimori] - Name Construction in Medieval Japan, Revised Edition by Solveig Throndardottir, pg. 222. Dated 1332, meaning 'High Status'

11. Guy Herbert of Rutland. New Name and Device. Per pale argent and sable, wolves rampant adorsed and a chevronelle abassed counterchanged.

(al-Barran) Gender: Male. Submitter will accept changes and cares most about language and/or culture, '11th-12th Century English'. Submitter desires authenticity for Culture and Time Period, '11th-12th Century English'.

[Guy] - Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names by Elizabeth G. Withycombe, pg. 143

'Masculine Given Names Found in the 1296 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Rutland' by Karen Larsdatter (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/Rutland/given-masc-alpha.htm)

[Herbert] - Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names by Elizabeth G. Withycombe, pg. 150

'Masculine Given Names Found in the 1296 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Rutland' by Karen Larsdatter (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/Rutland/given-masc-alpha.htm)

12. Hrefna Cyrredsdottir. New Name and Device. Quarterly sable and argent, a heart counterchanged.

(al-Barran) Gender: Female. Submitter will accept changes and desires authenticity for language/culture and time period, '12th-13th Century Norse (Viking)'

[Hrefna] - 'Old Norse Women's Names' from Viking Answer Lady Webpage (http://vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensNames.shtml#h)

[Cyrredsdottir] - No documentation provided but the submitter writes 'Cyrred is my father even though he's Welsh. If it can't be "Cyrredsdorrir", please change to "Torinsdottir".'

13. Lijsbet vande Visschereye. Badge Resubmission (Kingdom). (Fieldless) a lion erminois.

(Caerthe) Submitter's previous name was registered on the September 2006 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2006/09/06-09lar.html) via the Outlands.

Submitter's previous badge, (Fieldless), a lion rampant Or ermine azure langued and armed azure, was returned on the Janurary 2006 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2005-12-lop/0601-lor.html) stating:

Commenters indicate that the ermine spots are too small to allow their tincture to be identifiable. They tend to look sable in the images and paperwork. This is a violation of RfS VIII.3 which states "Elements must be used in a design so as to preserve their individual identifiability" and further explains "Identifiable elements may be rendered unidentifiable by significant reduction in size…" In this case it is effectively impossible to determine the tincture of the spots. Badge returned for rework.

14. Máel Mide ingen Domhnaill. Device Resubmission (Kingdom). Per bend vert and sable, a bend between a dragonfly bend-sinisterwise and a deer hoofprint bendwise argent.

(Dragonsspine) Submitter's name was sent up to Laurel on the November 2011 LoI (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-10-lop/1111-loi.html).

Submitter's previous device, Quarterly vert and sable, a dragonfly and a deer hoof print argent, was returned on the November 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-10-lop/1111-lor.html) stating:

This device is Returned for appearance of Marshalling per RfS XI.3.a: "a. Such fields may be used with identical charges over the entire field, or with complex lines of partition or charges overall that were not used for marshalling in period heraldry." (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html#11.3) This device does not meet that requirement.

Submitter changes the field division to clear the issue.

15. Pipa de Blakemere. Device Resubmission (Laurel). Per bend argent and sable, a natural panther rampant sable and a cross fleury argent, within a bordure embattled per bend purpure and argent.

(al-Barran) Submitter's name was registered on the November 2011 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/11/11-11lar.html) via the Outlands.

Submitter's previous device, Per bend argent and sable, an ounce rampant sable incensed argent and a cross flory argent, a bordure embattled per bend purpure and argent, was returned on the November 2011 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/11/11-11lar.html) stating:

This device is returned for a redraw, for violating section VII.7.a of the Rules for Submissions which requires that "Elements must be recognizable solely from their appearance." Blazoned on the Letter of Intent as a panther, this is neither an English-style panther, which has spots, nor a Continental panther, which is typically horned and has eagle's forefeet. A panther's incensing would also issue from both the mouth and ears, instead of just the mouth as depicted here. We have therefore reblazoned it as an ounce, which is a mane-less lion. However, the incensed flames here are argent on an argent field, giving no contrast at all. While in some cases small details of a charge may have poor or no contrast with the field, the overall charge must still be identifiable, and in this case we feel a return for a redraw is best.

The device was redrawn and reblazoned with a natural panther.

16. Quintin d'Acre. New Name and Device. Azure, a crab within a bordure argent.

(al-Barran) Gender: Male. Submitter will NOT accept MAJOR changes and cares most about sound.

[Quintin] - 'An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris' by Scott Catledge (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html#Q)

[d'Acre] - 'An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris' by Scott Catledge (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html#jewish)

17. Seamus O Mourane. Name Resubmission (Kingdom).

(Dragonsspine) Gender: Male. Submitter will accept changes and cares most about spelling, 'spelling of given name, Seamus'.

Submitter's previous name, Seamus O'Mourne, was returned on the September 2010 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2010-08-lop/1009-lor.html) stating:

RETURNED for lack of documentation of the surname. MacLysaght is considered among the "Name Sources to Avoid" in the College of Arms Administrative Handbook (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIXF). The documentation shows "Mourne" to be the name of a mountain, while the article "O'" is almost exclusively used in conjunction with family names. Commenters noted that "O Mourane" would be an acceptably documentable name (http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/).”

Submitter cleared the issue by using the suggestion given in the September 2010 LoR.

[Seamus] - listed in <OC&M>, p. 163. 

[O Mourane] - <Woulfe>, p. 618.

18. Shahida al-Fustati. New Name.

(al-Barran) Gender: Female. Submitter will NOT accept MAJOR or MINOR changes.

[Shahida] - Used in 16th Century Jerusalem, documented in A World Within: Jewish Life as reflected in Muslim Court Documents from the Sijill of Jerusalem (XVIth Century) by Amnon Cohen; 'Jewish Names in Ottoman Court Records (16th C Jerusalem): Feminine Given Names' by Kathleen M. O'Brien (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Jerusalem/WomenFullNames.shtml)

[al-Fustati] - a geographical nisba, meaning 'from Fustat'. Fustat was the capital of Egypt prior to Cairo off and on from 641 to 1168. (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/arabic-naming2.htm)

19. Shoshanah Simkhah bas Ruven. New Device. Per fess, vert and argent, a loaf of bread Or and a cauldron sable.

(Caer Galen) Submitter's name was registered on the December 2010 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/12/10-12lar.html) via the Outlands.

20. Vvillequin d' Maquereau. New Name.

(al-Barran) Gender: Female. Submitter will accept changes and cares most about language/culture, '13th Century France'.

[Vvillequin] - 'An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris' by Scott Catledge (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html#V)

[Maquereau] - 'French Names from Two Thirteenth Century Chronicles' by Josh Mittleman (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/crusades/)

21. Yasamin al-Hadiyya. Device Resubmission (Kingdom). Purpure, a senmurv within eight octofoils in annulo Or.

(Dragonsspine) Submitter's name was registered on the April 2010 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/04/10-04lar.html) via Drachenwald.

Submitter's previous device, Purpure, a senmurv within eight octofoils in annulo Or, was returned on the November 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-10-lop/1111-lor.html) stating:

Returned for conflict with Bahram the Resplendent (2/83, An Tir): Sable, a senmurv within an annulet of roundels Or. There is one CD for the change of color of the field, but there is no visual difference for roundels versus the octofoils as drawn.

The octofoils were redrawn to give more of a visual difference from roundels.

Thus ends the February 2012 Letter of Presentation.

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
February 2012 Letter of Presentation
March 2012 Letter of Response
March 2012 Letter of Intent
June 2012 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page