Last modified: May 26, 2003

Outlands College of Heralds

From the office of the Rampart Herald
Lady Alia Marie de Blois
rampart@outlandsheralds.org

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
May 2003 Letter of Response
May 2003 Letter of Intent
September 2003 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.

Unless otherwise specified, all changes are allowed by the submitter. Commentary was recieved from: al-Jamal Herald, Da'ud ibn Auda, Musimon Herald, Pendar the Bard,

1. Constance Warrock de Winandemere. Device Resubmission (Laurel). Argent, two roses azure seeded Or and on a point entée fleury azure, a cross patonce argent.
   al-Jamal: (device) As noted in the ILoP, point would not extend nearly so far into the shield; the line of division here (not including the fleur) extends fully to the fess point. This is definitely a per chevron line of division. I would blazon the field as something like Per chevron tipped of a demi-fleur-de-lys argent and azure.... The term ent{e'}e has only been used but once before in SCA heraldry (in 1988), and it does not appear in such broad scope works as Parker's A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry. As a consequence, I would try to avoid it.
   Musimon: (device) You are implying that she is trying to blazon her way out of a conflict, when what she actually appears to be doing is trying to make armory similar to Berold/Phillippe/Roger de Gilbert, without putting any effort into properly redrawing the forms. (Roger fought for her in Crown tourney). The blazon that you provided in the summary, Per chevron argent and azure, between two roses azure seeded Or and a cross patonce argent, a fleur-de-lys issuant from the line of division azure, is a more accurate blazon for the emblazon than what was provided, however the fleur is considered a complex line of division in this context and not a seperate charge, so blazon-fu: Per chevron argent and azure flory at the point, two roses azure seeded Or and a cross patonce argent. In spite of its diminutive size, the fleur at the point is considered a complex line of division and is worth difference, which is enough to clear it from the conflict that got it returned from Laurel previously. I found no new conflicts through 12/02. The closest was Per chevron argent and vert, two roses azure barbed and seeded and a claymore inverted proper grasped at the hilt by a gauntlet fesswise reversed argent. (Conallan hua Mordha, LoAR 11/02, Atenveldt). 1 CD for changes to the field. 1 CD for changes to half the type of primary charge group. (The bottom charge is given greater weight in arrangements like this.) There is a third CD for the complex line. Clear.
   ACTION: Device passed as 'Per chevron argent and azure, between two roses azure seeded Or and a cross patonce argent, a fleur-de-lys issuant from the line of division azure'.
2. Eric Eldonson. New Name and Device. Argent, a chevron between two compass stars vert and an anchor sable.
   He will not accept major changes, cares most about the language/culture, and wishes to have a male name authentic for language/culture "11-13th Cent. Scandinavian".
   al-Jamal: (name) No documentation was included? Where did he get the name from? It doesn't sound Norse to me.
   Musimon: (device) It should be noted in the blazon that the anchor is "fouled of its cable". No conflicts found through 12/02.
   ACTION: Name is returned for insufficient documentation. Device is pended for a name.
3. Gormlaith Ó'Néill. New Name and Device. Per bend sinister Or and argent, a bend sinister purpure between a heart and three gouttes gules.
   This client prefers a female name and will not allow any changes, but will allow a holding name.
   al-Jamal: (name) If she's going to use the accent over the O in {O'} N{e'}ill, then the apostrophe should be dropped. If she wants the apostrophe, then the accent over the O should be dropped. They are both indicative of the same thing. A bigger problem is that she can't be the male descendant of Niall, which is what {O'} N{e'}ill actually means. (It doesn't necessarily mean that in an English context, but the context here, with the use of accents, is not English.)
   Musimon: (device) No conflicts found through 12/02.
   ACTION: I spoke with client, who gave permission to drop the apostrophe, for a full Irish name, which matches that of her husband. In looking through precedent and the O&A, I found no precedent regarding this, and at least one recent registration with a female name. As I don't profess to great names knowledge, I'm sending it up and I'll let the College chastise me for it later. Name and device pass.
4. Ileana Welgy. Device Resubmission (Laurel). Argent, a moor's arm embowed proper upon a trimount vert, on a chief azure three crescents argent.
   al-Jamal: (device) "Upon: An ambiguous term which should be avoided in blazon." (Glossary of Terms, Appendix 1) The arm is atop the trimount.
   Musimon: (device) No conflicts found through 12/02.
   ACTION: Device passes with 'atop' instead of 'upon'.
5. Lin Shiao Mei. New Name and Device. Gules, a phoenix, on a chief triangular argent, a cinquefoil purpure.
   She will not accept major or minor changes, cares most about the language/culture and meaning (which she says is: "Little Plum Blossom" from the family "Lin"), and wishes a female name authentic for the language/culture "Chinese".
   Musimon: (device) No conflicts found through 12/02.
   ACTION: Name and device pass.
6. Llywus ap Alan. Name and Device Resubmission (Laurel). Argent, a panther sejant sable, on a chief vert three candles argent enflamed Or.
   He will not accept major changes to his name, and wishes a male name authentic for "12th-14th century Welsh" time period and language/culture. If this spelling of the given name is not registrable, the submitter will accept "Llwys", which is listed in Morgan & Morgan on page 149.
   al-Jamal: (name) Alan is documented as an English given name; it's use with the Welsh patronymic particle may be inappropriate, barring evidence of the use of Alan in Welsh.
   Musimon: (device) No conflicts found through 12/02, though I find it amusing that the closest call was for another Welsh person sharing a similar name element: Rhiannon Llysieuwraig (8/93 via the East): Argent, a cat sejant, dexter paw raised sable, on a chief embattled vert two crescents argent.
   ACTION: Name and device pass.
7. Morris Ó Fiaich. New Device. Checky azure and argent, on a bend argent fimbriated sable, three hearts gules.
   al-Jamal: (device) It needs to be noted in the blazon that the hearts are palewise, as their default orientation on the bend would be "bendwise".
   Musimon: (device) Please note that the hearts are "palewise." While there were several devices with three hearts palewise gules on a bend argent, they all had CD's for changes to the field and the addition of secondary charges. (The fimbriation does not count for difference.) Please inform the client that the fimbriation is not required here in spite of the fact the bend shares a tincture with the field, as per: Checky purpure and argent, on a bend argent three trees palewise sable. (Kaie Tor of Blakwode, LoAR 04/02, Calontir) This device will need to be returned for a redraw. There should be an equal number of blue and white checks, which means that there would need to be a per pale line of division with an equal number of boxes on both sides. There is not.
   ACTION: Device passes with redraw, hearts noted as palewise.
8. Nikolaus von Stahburg. New Name and Device.Per chevron throughout vert and sable, a chevron throughout between three rams heads affronty cabossed argent horned Or.
   The client prefers a male name, authentic for unspecified language/culture, and will not allow any changes, nor the creation of a holding name.
   al-Jamal: (device) The ram's heads are armed Or.
   Musimon: (device) Blazon-fu: Per chevron throughout vert and sable, a chevron throughout between three ram's heads cabossed argent armed Or. Close to Ram the Reticent (8/79): Per chevron sable and gules, a chevron between two ram's heads erased respectant and a ram's head cabossed argent. 1 CD for changes to the field. Nothing for the chevron being throughout. 1 CD for orientation of two of the three ram's heads. No conflicts found through 12/02.
   ACTION: Name returned for insufficient documentation of 'von Stahburg'. Device pended for a name.
9. Outlands, Kingdom of the. New Heraldic Title. Stag's Attire Herald.
   ACTION: Name passes.
10. Tavia of Persia. Device Resubmission (Laurel). Azure, a simurgh close Or.
    Musimon: (device) No conflicts found through 12/02. All of the closest items had CD's for field and either secondaries or bordures.
    ACTION: Device passes.
11. Törägänä Al'altun. Name and Device Resubmission (Laurel). Azure, a peacock feather between in fess a hand of Fatima bendwise and another bendwise sinister.
    The submitter requests a female name authentic for "Turkic Timund/Central Asian (modernly Uzbekistan) under Jenghiz-Hanite rule". She will not accept major changes.
    al-Jamal: (device) (Just explain to the submitter that the shield shape is an administrative requirement of the College of Arms, and that it does not affect in any way the shape she later displays her arms on, whether it be a roundel, a square, a rectangle, a pentagon, or any other shape.) Oh, dear. First off, there's no way that we could reasonably blazon the central charge as a "peacock feather". The SCA has defined a peacock feather, and this isn't it. RfS VII.7.a. requires that "Elements must be recognizable solely from their appearance." And RfS VII.7.b. requires that "Elements must be reconstructible in a recognizable form from a competent blazon." Neither of these is possible if we use the term "peacock feather" for the central charge. The issue of documentation of the central charge has not really been addressed. The prior return stated: "The armory has two problems. First, no documentation was presented for the 'tanit', or, per Meyer's Saracenic Heraldry, 'figure 26', 'the so-called target' as having been used in period armory. Since the charge has never been registered before, it requires this documentation." (LoAR April 1999) The submitter has repeated the citation from Meyer (which Laurel was given, in commentary at least, for the consideration of the prior submission), and added that of a bowl shard showing "a somewhat different design". This is really not documentation for its use in period heraldry (or compatability therewith). Indeed, the submitter can't find a decent number of examples or even a decent definition for this artistic motif: "tanit", then "so-called target" (even Meyer doesn't have a name for it), and finally, "peacock feather". I can do little better than repeat my research and commentary on the previous ILoP where this element appeared: "The tanit (possibly a target, but which Leaf and Purcell in their Heraldic Symbols: Islamic Insignia and Western Heraldry, p. 80, believe may be the equivalent to one or another tamga, itself an unblazonable mark or brand) has not been registered before in the SCA. As a consequence, we need to check the documentation very carefully, as this would be the defining instance of the charge. Indeed, I am not certain where the term "tanit" comes from. In Purcell, it is only called "Emblem 26", which number comes from Mayer's plate of "Simple Charges" facing page 9. The charge there is figure number 26. Mayer, p. 18, calls that figure "the so-called target". I think that at the very least we need support for the name used for the charge, since apparently not even the experts agree on what to call it." Without addressing directly the reason for the prior return of this motif, I don't see how we can reasonably send it on to Laurel.
    Musimon: (device) Your assumption about the client submitting it on a roundel because she wants to display it on a roundel is absolutely correct. The exact same thing happened the last time she submitted it and I had to redraw it onto a device form before sending it up.
    ACTION: Name passes. Device returned for insufficient documentation (or even a real name) for the primary charge.
12. Vanna Lucia Taormina. New Device. Gyronny sable and gules, a butterfly argent within a bordure embattled argent.
    Her name was registered on the April 1999 LOAR.
    This device will be returned, as the use of the two-color gyronny field violates RfS VIII.2.b.iv. "Elements evenly divided into multiple parts of two different tinctures must have good contrast between their parts." The division of this field is especially obscured by the butterfly and bordure.
    al-Jamal: (device) Yup, too many divisions of the field to be all color (here, black and red). The first "argent" in the blazon is unnecessary: "In blazoning a Coat of Arms in which two or more Charges of the same Tincture immediately follow each other in the Blazon, it is not necessary to mention the tincture until all the Charges of such Tincture have been specified." (John E. Cussans, Handbook of Heraldry, 1882, p. 161)
    Musimon: (device) Aside from the tincture problems noted in the LoP, there is a redundant argent in the blazon. The client should probably be made aware that there is already somebody in this kingdom with armory similar to what she is submitting: Sidonia of Seven Oaks (1/90 via the Outlands): Azure, a butterfly argent between four acorns in cross Or, all within a bordure embattled argent. There is a CD for changes to the field and another for removal of the secondaries, but the fact that Sidonia is also from the Outlands may be worth consideration.
    ACTION: Device returned for contrast issues.
13. Wolf von der Mühle-Eckart. New Name and Device. Vert, upon a pile argent between two wings argent a trebly arched bridge sable.
    This client desires a male name, authentic for 14th-15th German, cares most about "language/culture", and will not allow major changes.
    al-Jamal: (name) Alas, documenting individual name elements does not document the proper construction or grammar of a name. He seems to have adequately supported von der M{u"}hle, but not the -Eckart.
    al-Jamal: (device) "Upon: An ambiguous term which should be avoided in blazon." (Glossary of Terms, Appendix 1) The bridge is on the pile. It is also "in chief", rather than the more expected centrally placed location. "Two wings" would default to "two dexter wings"; this should be changed to "between a pair of wings...." The first "argent" in the blazon is unnecessary. "In blazoning a Coat of Arms in which two or more Charges of the same Tincture immediately follow each other in the Blazon, it is not necessary to mention the tincture until all the Charges of such Tincture have been specified." (John E. Cussans, Handbook of Heraldry, 1882, p. 161) Blazon fu: Vert, on a pile between a pair of wings argent a triply-arched bridge sable.
    Musimon: (device) When I saw his shield at Crown I thought the charge on the pile was a label. (not that it makes any difference). No conflicts found through 12/02.
    ACTION: Name returned for improper construction. Device pended for a name.
    Special addition: (because sometimes Rampart has a memory like a steel colander.)
    
14. Leif Vagnsson. Device Resubmission (K). Quarterly gules and azure, a bear statant erect contourny sustaining a Danish axe argent.
    ACTION: Device passed.

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
May 2003 Letter of Response
May 2003 Letter of Intent
September 2003 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.