Last modified: October 29, 2003
From the office of the Rampart Herald
Lady Alia Marie de Blois (Lillith Lesanges)
July Line Emblazon Sheet
July Color Emblazon Sheet
July 2003 Letter of Presentation
August Line Emblazon Sheet
August Color Emblazon Sheet
August 2003 Letter of Presentation
September 2003
Letter of Intent
January 2004 LoAR Results
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Rampart home page.
Please note! This is the mega-September Letter of Response, covering both the July and August Letters of Presentation.
Unless otherwise specified, the submittor allowed all changes, wanted a name with the "common sense" gender (or did not specify), and had no authenticity requests.
The following submissions were passed on to Laurel and the College of Arms for final consideration:
The following submissions were returned for further work:
Maledysaunt in the citation from Malory is being used to describe a person, but it is not used to name the person. Even if it was part of her name, this would be a minor character, and we previously have not registered the names of minor characters from Malory. (Even though Malory can't be considered a minor work). Therefore, I doubt that Maledysaunt is registerable based on the documentation provided. Dauzat has nothing like Maledysaunt, and he has alot of bynames beginning with 'Mal-'"" Period literature such as histories, romances, sagas, legends and myths occupy a slightly unusual position as sources for period names. While the documents themselves are undeniable period themselves, the names in them range from names that can be clearly documented as being used by humans from other, more prosaic sources, to names assigned to humans in literature that appear to be unique to a particular character and cannot be documented to have been used by real medieval humans to names which are clearly assigned to supernatural creatures in the literature. Given this range of possibilities, period literature must be used cautiously as a source for medieval names.
"A researcher must look carefully at the source, its purpose and the character that bears the name. As a rule of thumb, a literary work whose purpose is historical is going to be more accurate about naming practices in that culture and time than a mythological source, with the caveat that the further back a "historical" source goes from the writer's own time, the more fantastical elements may creep in. The fidelity of the translation must also be considered. The modern editions of many medieval sources are translated or the spelling regularized or modernized. This means that a documentable name may appear in a translated or modernized source in a form inappropriate to the period and culture from which the source originates. It is also generally necessary to look at the actual naming practices of the time period in which the work of literature was produced and thereafter, as some works have affected subsequent naming practices. If you can document the name from a more standard source, it is usually better to use the standard source rather than the literary work as documentation. However, names from period literature may be used, with some caveats."1. Try other sources first - often better documentation can be found.
" 2. It has to be a name of a human being in the story. God/dess, elf, dwarf, etc. names aren't usable.
" 3. Beware of allegorical names in sources such as the English mystery plays. It is extremely unlikely that we would register Everyman as a name, even though it is found as a name of a human being in period mystery plays, unless actual documentation is found for it as a name for a real person.
" 4. And this is subjective - minor characters from minor works may or may not be acceptable. Especially if they do not fit the naming patterns of the time period. (Jaelle of Armida, CL with the February 1999 LoAR, p. 2)"
This means each individual charge - simply because some items in a certain class of objects are registrable does not mean that all items in that class are registrable. For example, while needles and scissors are certainly registrable, modern sewing machines are not, even though they are all sewing implements. Similarly, while many animals are registrable, I would not expect a Labradoodle (a modern breed of dog that crosses Labradors and Poodles, for assistance work) or a kangaroo (found only in Australia, and not known in Europe in our period) to be registrable."The turnpike, or turnstyle, in this submission would be the defining registration of this charge in SCA heraldry. Defining instances of charges require slightly higher standards of documentation than registrations of previously registered charges. This policy has been upheld consistently for over ten years but one of the clearest statements of the policy is in the LoAR of August 1995:
A registration of this submission would apparently be the first, and therefore defining, instance of such a charge. Especially in the case of charges not registered previously, the College requires documentation that the charge (a) has been used in period armory or (b) is compatible with similar charges in period armory, and (c) has a standardized depiction which would make reproducability [sic] from the blazon possible. We need such documentation here.
This submission was accompanied by a single piece of documentation from Parker's A Glossary of Terms used in Heraldry. This book does not clearly date the charge as having been used in period armory. The only date provided in Parker is associated with the crest of Skipworth, but appears to be the date of the founding of the baronetcy rather than the date of the crest. We consulted Fairbairn's Crests, but that volume did not help resolve the date of that particular crest. No evidence was presented by the submitting kingdom, and none was found by the College or Laurel staff, for use of a turnpike in period heraldry.
If a turnpike is a period artifact, it would probably be "compatible with similar charges in period armory" such as portcullises and doors. However, no evidence was presented describing a period turnpike. Nor was documentation presented showing that a turnpike "has a standardized depiction which would make reproducability [sic] from the blazon possible." The submission must therefore be returned until such time as the turnpike may be documented appropriately for a defining instance of the charge."
This means each individual charge - simply because some items in a certain class of objects are registrable does not mean that all items in that class are registrable. For example, while needles and scissors are certainly registrable, modern sewing machines are not, even though they are all sewing implements. Similarly, while many animals are registrable, I would not expect a Labradoodle (a modern breed of dog that crosses Labradors and Poodles, for assistance work) or a kangaroo (found only in Australia, and not known in Europe in our period) to be registrable."The turnpike, or turnstyle, in this submission would be the defining registration of this charge in SCA heraldry. Defining instances of charges require slightly higher standards of documentation than registrations of previously registered charges. This policy has been upheld consistently for over ten years but one of the clearest statements of the policy is in the LoAR of August 1995:
A registration of this submission would apparently be the first, and therefore defining, instance of such a charge. Especially in the case of charges not registered previously, the College requires documentation that the charge (a) has been used in period armory or (b) is compatible with similar charges in period armory, and (c) has a standardized depiction which would make reproducability [sic] from the blazon possible. We need such documentation here.
This submission was accompanied by a single piece of documentation from Parker's A Glossary of Terms used in Heraldry. This book does not clearly date the charge as having been used in period armory. The only date provided in Parker is associated with the crest of Skipworth, but appears to be the date of the founding of the baronetcy rather than the date of the crest. We consulted Fairbairn's Crests, but that volume did not help resolve the date of that particular crest. No evidence was presented by the submitting kingdom, and none was found by the College or Laurel staff, for use of a turnpike in period heraldry.
If a turnpike is a period artifact, it would probably be "compatible with similar charges in period armory" such as portcullises and doors. However, no evidence was presented describing a period turnpike. Nor was documentation presented showing that a turnpike "has a standardized depiction which would make reproducability [sic] from the blazon possible." The submission must therefore be returned until such time as the turnpike may be documented appropriately for a defining instance of the charge."
This means each individual charge - simply because some items in a certain class of objects are registrable does not mean that all items in that class are registrable. For example, while needles and scissors are certainly registrable, modern sewing machines are not, even though they are all sewing implements. Similarly, while many animals are registrable, I would not expect a Labradoodle (a modern breed of dog that crosses Labradors and Poodles, for assistance work) or a kangaroo (found only in Australia, and not known in Europe in our period) to be registrable."The turnpike, or turnstyle, in this submission would be the defining registration of this charge in SCA heraldry. Defining instances of charges require slightly higher standards of documentation than registrations of previously registered charges. This policy has been upheld consistently for over ten years but one of the clearest statements of the policy is in the LoAR of August 1995:
A registration of this submission would apparently be the first, and therefore defining, instance of such a charge. Especially in the case of charges not registered previously, the College requires documentation that the charge (a) has been used in period armory or (b) is compatible with similar charges in period armory, and (c) has a standardized depiction which would make reproducability [sic] from the blazon possible. We need such documentation here.
This submission was accompanied by a single piece of documentation from Parker's A Glossary of Terms used in Heraldry. This book does not clearly date the charge as having been used in period armory. The only date provided in Parker is associated with the crest of Skipworth, but appears to be the date of the founding of the baronetcy rather than the date of the crest. We consulted Fairbairn's Crests, but that volume did not help resolve the date of that particular crest. No evidence was presented by the submitting kingdom, and none was found by the College or Laurel staff, for use of a turnpike in period heraldry.
If a turnpike is a period artifact, it would probably be "compatible with similar charges in period armory" such as portcullises and doors. However, no evidence was presented describing a period turnpike. Nor was documentation presented showing that a turnpike "has a standardized depiction which would make reproducability [sic] from the blazon possible." The submission must therefore be returned until such time as the turnpike may be documented appropriately for a defining instance of the charge."
In that particular case, other heralds provided documentation, and it was registered. However, Laurel would have been quite within his rights to return that name, and any other for which no documentation was provided."No documentation at all for this name was included in either the submission or the LoI. Lacking documentation for this name, this submission should have been returned at Kingdom."
The following submissions are pended (that is, would have been sent on but the name was returned):
I concur that this resubmission should not conflict, as this submission has the mullet much larger than the scarpes (making the mullet clearly the primary charge) and Anastasia's should have the bendlets larger than the mullets (making the bendlets the primary charge). It's possible that someone would ask for a visual check, but I doubt it."As for the device, the mullet as drawn is not really a mullet but a bezant engrailed. In any case the submission conflicts with Anastasia Vladimirovna ("Sable, two bendlets sinister Or, and in bend three mullets argent.")."
July Line Emblazon Sheet
July Color Emblazon Sheet
July 2003 Letter of Presentation
August Line Emblazon Sheet
August Color Emblazon Sheet
August 2003 Letter of Presentation
September 2003
Letter of Intent
January 2004 LoAR Results
Return to the
Rampart home page.