Last modified: July 8, 2004

Outlands College of Heralds

From the office of the Rampart Herald
Lady Alia Marie de Blois (Lillith Lesanges)
1223 Fruit Ave. NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102
alia@swcp.com

UNTO the members of the College of Heralds of the Kingdom of the Outlands, and all others who generously give of their time and talents in commentary on this Letter of Presentation, upon this 13th day of July, A.S. XXXVIII (2003 CE), does Lady Alia Marie de Blois, Rampart Herald, send greetings and those commendations which are appropriately due.

Wow. There are 31 submissions in this letter. That's a lot more than usual. Good work, heralds!

Anyone who wants to may send me a letter of comment regarding this Letter of Presentation. I prefer them via email.
Please have your commentary on this letter to me by mid-August. Please send commentary to: alia 'at' swcp.com or the address above.

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
September 2003 Letter of Response
September 2003 Letter of Intent
January 2004 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.

On behalf of Mistress Tatiana Pavlovna Sokolova, White Stag Principal Herald,
I present the following items for your consideration:

(Unless otherwise noted, all submittors will accept all changes, have no authenticity requests, and wish a name with the "common sense" gender, based on the submitted name.)

0.     A change to the internal commenting period. Discussion.
Recently, there has been some discussion on the SCA-wide heralds email list that, well, it takes a really darn long time to get a submission all the way from the submittor to the receipt of the LOAR. While that discussion mostly concerned the time it takes from a LOAR meeting to actual receipt of the LOAR, it occurs to me that there is a bit of fat we can trim off here at the kingdom level. Currently, we allow two months for internal commentary, but I generally receive most of the commentary within the first couple of weeks. Therefore, I ask: is it reasonable for the Outlands to decrease the internal commentary time to one month?
If it is reasonable and desirable, I will begin that with the August LoP, which should make for a humungous September LoI. :)
  1. Angus Montgomery the Forester.(Caerthe) New badge. (Fieldless) An arrow palewise Or, overall a hound passant ermine.
    His name was registered in April of 1991.
  2. Anora Maledysaunt. (Dragonsspine) New name.
    Anora is found in Withycombe on page 154 under the header Honor. Maledysaunt is documented from an online copy of Syr Thomas Malory’s Le Morte dArthur which appears to be found on a site titled "Corpus of Middle Engligh Prose and Verse". In Book Nine: the hystorye of La cote male tayle, on leaf 171v (paragraph two), it says "What dost thou here in my felauship saide the damoysel maledysaunt / thou canst not sytte no knyghte". Unfortunately, while printouts were provided, none of them show the URL.
  3. Anora Maledysaunt. (Dragonsspine) New device. Sable, in pile a rose slipped and leaved argent and a feather Or.
    The name is submitted on this letter.
  4. Ástriðr Ketilsdóttir. (Dragonsspine) New name.
    Ástriðr is found as a female name in The Old Norse Name by Geirr Bassi, on page 8. Ketilsdóttir is a patronymic byname meaning ‘daughter of Ketill’, where Ketill is found on page 12 of the same source as a male name and Ketilsdóttir is one of the examples of how to form a patronymic byname listed on page 17.
    She is interested in a name authentic for "Viking" language/culture.
  5. Ástriðr Ketilsdóttir. (Dragonsspine) New device. Or, a popinjay vert and a chief double-enarched azure.
    The name is submitted on this letter.
  6. Birgitta Andersdotther. (Dragonsspine) New name.
    Birgitta is found in the article "Swedish Feminine Names from ca. 1300" by Lindorm Eriksson (Christer Romson) at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/swedish1300female.htm Birgetta is one of the 40 women’s names which appeared between 1 and 4 times each in a collection of Swedish economical and legal documents from 1286-1310.Birgitta is also found in various spellings (including "Birgitta") in "Swedish Feminine Given Names from SMP (Sveriges Medeltida Personnamn, Vol I) by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Friedemann) at http://www.ellipsis.ex/~liana/names/smp/ There are a number of instances of the desired spelling dated between 1404 and 1530. Andersdotther is a patronymic byname formed from the genitive case of the name Anders" and the suffix "dotther" as indicated in "Swedish Feminine Given Names" (as above). Anders was documented as a masculine Swedish given name in Sveriges Medeltida Personnamn, Vol I found at http://www.dal.lu.se/sofi/smp/smp.htm This name is shown in this spelling in both nominative and genitive cases (nominative dated to 1378 and 1427, genitive dated to 1471).
    She cares most about the language/culture and is interested in a name authentic for "14th-15th C Swedish" language/culture.
  7. Birgitta Andersdotther. (Dragonsspine) New device. Azure, a dance argent between two seahorses respectant and a handbell Or.
    Name is submitted on this letter.
  8. Caer Galen, Shire of. (Caer Galen) New badge. Per pale Or and azure, a harp counterchanged.
    This name was registered in May of 1980. It would be nice to be able to tell Laurel what this badge is for.
  9. Cecelia Corr Mhaire. (Hawk's Hollow) Badge resubmission (kingdom). (Fieldless) A lucet per pale vert and argent.
    Her name was registered in August of 1995. Her previous badge submission, (Fieldless) A Bowen knot crosswise per saltire vert and azure, was returned in March 2003 by Rampart for identifiability issues. This is a complete redesign. This would be the first registration of a lucet in the SCA, and as such, it will require documentation. I will be in contact with the local herald and the submitter regarding this.
  10. Cecelia Corr Mhaire. (Hawk's Hollow) Badge resubmission (kingdom). Per pale vert and argent, a lucet counterchanged.
    Her name was registered in August of 1995. Her previous badge submission, Per pale vert and azure, a Bowen knot crosswise argent, was returned for conflict. This is a complete redesign. This would be the first registration of a lucet in the SCA, and as such, it will require documentation. I will be in contact with the local herald and the submitter regarding this.
  11. Fionn McDougal. (Caerthe) New name.
    Fionn is found in O’Corrain and Maguire’s Irish Names on page100, under the header Finn. McDougall (not McDougal) is a header form (under Macdougal) in Reaney & Wilson's A Dictionary of English Surnames (revised edition) on page 291, which lists various dated forms (but mostly of the 'Mac/Mak' spelling). Black's The Surnames of Scotland, on page 217 has the header Dougal, but no indication of a McDougal form, just the Macdougal form. If one of these forms is acceptable, does this name still have cultural incompatibility issues?
    He will not accept major changes and has no authenticity requests.
  12. Fionn McDougal. (Caerthe) New device. Per bend sinister vert and azure, a sealion erect argent sustaining in its forepaws an anchor Or.
    Name is submitted on this letter. I think this is an interesting way to avoid the far too frequent pattern of "per bend sinister X and Y, a thing W and a different thing Z."
  13. Gwenlliana Iohannes. (Caerthe) New name.
    Gwenlliana is a variant found under the header Gwenllian in "A Simple Guide to Constructing 16th Century Welsh Names" by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (at: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh16.html ). Iohannes is a variant found under the header John in "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Names" (at: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html ). This name follows the {given name} {father's given name} pattern described in "A Simple Guide to Constructing 16th Century Welsh Names".
    She cares most about the language/culture and is interested in a name authentic for "Welsh" language/culture.
  14. Iohannes Kythin. (Caerthe) New name.
    Both parts of this name are documented from "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Names" (at: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html ). Iohannes is a variant under the heading John. Kythin is listed on the form as "an occupational byname meaning "hunter", located on the same page", but the page actually gives the form Kynith. Is this too major a change?
    He will not allow major changes, and is interested in a name authentic for "Welsh" language/culture.
  15. Jacques Lambert. (Caerthe) Name resubmission (Laurel).
    His previous name submission was returned by Laurel on the September 2002 LOAR for conflict with John Lambert (1619-1683), English general and political leader during the English Revolution. This resubmission addresses the conflict by changing the given name. Both portions of this name are documented from "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" by Lord Colm Dubh (at: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html ), where each portion may be found as the appropriate type (given, byname).
  16. Jacques Lambert. (Caerthe) Device resubmission (kingdom). Per bend purpure and vert, a lightning bolt bendwise and in base a rabbit rampant argent.
    His name is resubmitted on this letter. His original submission, Per bend embattled purpure and vert, a lightning bolt bendwise throughout and in dexter base a rabbit argent, was returned by Rampart on the May 2002 LOR, probably for reproducibility issues (the lightning bolt exactly overlay the embattled line of division). I suspect this should be reblazoned something like: Per bend purpure and vert, in bend sinister a lightning bolt bendwise and a rabbit rampant argent, since the charges could be placed anywhere on the field.
  17. Lorcan Mac Colla. (Caerthe) Device resubmission (unknown). Per chevron argent and purpure, two cows statant respectant sable and a battle axe argent.
    His name was registered in November of 1999. Obviously this isn’t a standard ‘per chevron’. Is it an acceptable ‘per chevron enhanced’?
  18. Mac Con mac Conaill. (Caerthe) New name.
    Mac Con is found in Ó Corráin and Maguire’s Irish Names (2nd ed.) on page 127, which says: "Mac Con was a favourite name amongst the O Driscolls, MacNamaras and other families in the later middle ages." mac Conaill is a patronymic byname constructed from the element ‘mac’ meaning ‘son’, and the genitive case of ‘Conall’ (genitive is the possessive, so includes the ‘of’). This construction (mac {father's given name in genitive form}) is documented from information in the article "Quick and Easy Gaelic Names" by Sharon L. Krossa at http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames . The name Conall is given as the 9th most frequent masculine name in the listing "100 Most Popular Names in Early Medieval Ireland" compiled by Heather Rose Jones (aka Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn) at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/irish100.html . This site lists Conaill as the genitive form.
    He will not accept major changes, cares most about the meaning of the name (which he gives as: Mac Con="son of wolf", Conall="strong as wolf"), and is interested in being authentic for "Celtic" language/culture.
  19. Mac Con mac Conaill. (Caerthe) New device. Per bend sinister azure and argent, in bend three wolves passant counterchanged.
    His name is submitted on this letter. Is it worthwhile to blazon them as ‘langued gules’?
  20. Magdalena Violente de Flores. (Caer Galen) New name.
    All parts of this name are documented from Juliana de Luna's "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" at: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/isabella/ Both Magdelena and Violente are documented from the section on Women's Given names ( WomensGivenNames.html ) although this page says "No women have a second given name". Flores is documented from the section on "other" surnames ( OtherSurnames.html ). The main page regarding surnames ( surnames.html ) seems to indicate that the "other" surnames do not typically use the "de". Does anyone have any documentation for double given names, or for "de Flores" vs. "Flores"?
    She will not accept minor changes, cares most about the language/culture, and is interested in authenticity for "late period Spain".
  21. Magdalena Violente de Flores. (Caer Galen) New device. Ermine, on an egg gules, a fleur-de-lys Or.
    Her name is submitted on this letter. I think this is probably a couple too few ermine spots (especially given their size), but since there is lots of space for more, I would probably draw in a few more when sending it up and inform the submittor instead of returning for redraw.
  22. Otto von Aachen. (Caerthe) New name.
    Otto is found in Withycombe's Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names under the header Odo on page 231 and is dated to 1086. It is also found (for an explicitly German form) in "Late Period German Masculine Given Names" by Talan Gwynek ( http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/germmasc.html ), under the section "Names from 14th Century Plauen".
    Aachen is a city in the north Rhine region of Germany, and was Charlemagne's capitol in the 8th Century (so says the form, but no documentation was provided). However, it is also found in Bahlow's German Names (Edda Gentry translation) on page 1 under the header Aaken, van Aaken, Acken, which says "from the city of Aachen (doc.: Aken), cf. Aken on the Elbe, also Heinrich Aken of Beelitz 1484. In Lüb., Ro., Strals., Greifsw. around 1300 de Aken meant the city of Aachen as place of origin." I suspect that a more authentic form of the name would be Otto de Aken or Otto Aken, which may be more than a minor change (which is all the submittor allows). Perhaps Otto van Aaken (the header form) would be acceptable?
    He will not allow major changes, cares most about the language/culture, and is interested in having a name authentic for "1350-1400" time period and "German (Rhine land [Rampart: it's hard to read this note])" language/culture.
  23. Otto von Aachen. (Caerthe) New device. Per pale argent and sable, a chevron enhanced and in base a tower counterchanged.
    His name is submitted on this letter.
  24. Rebekah of Clan Tynker. (Drygestan) New name.
    Rebekah is her legal first name (although no documentation was provided for this). Withycombe's Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names under the header Rebecca lists Rebekah, but says that it was not much used until after the Reformation. "Late Sixteenth Century English Given Names" by Talan Gwynek ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/eng16/ ) lists the form Rebecca. "Feminine Given Names in Chesham, 1538-1600/1" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/chesham/chesham-feminine.html ) dates the form Rebeccah to 1600.
    Provided documentation for Tynker includes a web printout of "the Vagrancy Act of 1597" (no URL), which includes a list of types of folks to round up and imprison for being "Rogues Vagabondes and Sturdy Beggars", namely "... all Juglers Tynkers Peddlers and Petty Chapmen wandering abroade ...". Also provided was a copy of the "Irish Traveler Timeline in Ireland and UK" (at: http://www.pitt.edu/~alkst3/Timeline.html ). Tynker is also found in "An Index to the 1332 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Lincolnshire, England" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (mka Kathleen M. O'Brien) (at: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/LincLSR/ ) in the section of Full Names sorted by byname under "T", which lists "Thomas Tynker". Tinker is a header form in Reaney and Wilson's Dictionary of English Surnames, with spellings dated to the 1240's. Unfortunately, I could find no support for the formation "of Clan Tynker".
    I suspect a more period form of this name would be Rebecca Tynker, Rebeccah Tynker, or Rebecca Tinker, but any of those would be a major change, which the submittor does not allow. I'm contacting the client in hopes of further documentation or explicit permission to use one of these forms.
    She will not accept major changes, cares most about the sound, and wishes a female name authentic for "14th-15th Century" time period.
  25. Rebekah of Clan Tynker. (Drygestan) New device. Per pale azure and ermine, a dove displayed within an orle, all counterchanged.
    Her name is submitted on this letter.
  26. Sam of Clan Tynker. (Drygestan) New name.
    Samuel is his legal first name (although no documentation was provided for this). Withycombe's Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names under the header Samuel says that it "was rare as a Christian name in the Middle Ages". "Masculine Given Names in Chesham, 1538-1600/1" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) ( http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/chesham/chesham-masculine.html ) dates the form Samuel to 1576.
    Provided documentation for Tynker includes a web printout of "the Vagrancy Act of 1597" (no URL), which includes a list of types of folks to round up and imprison for being "Rogues Vagabondes and Sturdy Beggars", namely "... all Juglers Tynkers Peddlers and Petty Chapmen wandering abroade ...". Also provided was a copy of the "Irish Traveler Timeline in Ireland and UK" (at: http://www.pitt.edu/~alkst3/Timeline.html ). Tynker is also found in "An Index to the 1332 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Lincolnshire, England" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (mka Kathleen M. O'Brien) (at: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/LincLSR/ ) in the section of Full Names sorted by byname under "T", which lists "Thomas Tynker". Tinker is a header form in Reaney and Wilson's Dictionary of English Surnames, with spellings dated to the 1240's. Unfortunately, I could find no support for the formation "of Clan Tynker".
    I suspect a more period form of this name would be Samuel Tinker or Samuel Tynker, but either of those would be a major change, which the submittor does not allow. I'm contacting the client in hopes of further documentation or explicit permission to use one of these forms.
    He will not allow major changes, cares most about the sound, and wishes a name authentic for "11th - 12th Century" time period.
  27. Sam of Clan Tynker. (Drygestan) New device. Argent, a death symbol within a bordure sable, on a chief gules, a crescent Or.
    For documentation of the death symbol, the client has provided a photocopy of a page from a book (unfortunately, the title doesn't appear on the photocopy!) which seems to give a chronology of Rome, and has an illustration of two gladiators with their names next to them, and this symbol next to one of the names. The caption reads, "'Cupido dies at the hands of the secutor Belurefons.' Cupido's name is followed by the death symbol showing that this was to be his last appearance in the arena. His killer is wearing the crested helmet of a secutor. (Author's illustration)."
    Is this sufficient documentation (I doubt it, as this does not show that this symbol would have been used in heraldry), or does anyone else have any further suggestions on documentation?
  28. Thalia Ruggenall. (Caerthe) New name.
    Thalia is found in the Collected Precedents of the SCA under the heading Greek, from the tenure of Laurel Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year), 1995.09 ( http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/precedents/CompiledNamePrecedents/Greek.html ), which says "In Greek mythology Thalia `bloom; good cheer, wealth, plenty' was the Muse of comedy and one of the three Graces; the other two Graces were Euphrosyne `cheerfulness, mirth, merriment' and Aglaia `splendor, beauty, brightness'. Evidence for period use of the names of the Muses is slight, but Praerie's Dictionary of Period Russian Names cites Evfrosin 1481 and a 4th century martyr Aglaii, whose names are clearly masculine forms of the names of the other two Graces. De Felice mentions several saints Eufrosina and indicates that Aglaia was used during the Italian Renaissance, while Withycombe notes a legendary saint Aglaia. Thus, the names of at least two of the three Graces were in use in Europe toward the end of our period; and since 16th century England seems to have been relatively open to new names of Classical origin, we are willing to grant the possibility that the remaining name, Thalia, might have been used then." Ruggenal is found in "Fairenames for English Folk: Late Sixteenth Century English Names" at: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/christian/fairnames/surnames.html
    She will not accept major changes and has no authenticity requests.
  29. Thalia Ruggenal. (Caerthe) New device. Per chevron argent and vert, two dragonflies vert and an oak tree couped and fructed Or.
    Her name is submitted on this letter.
  30. Thyra Ulfsvina. (Dragonsspine) New name.
    Thyra is the name of a Danish Queen found on two stones found at Jelling, in Denmark. The older stone (c. 950) reads “King Gorm made these monuments in memory of his queen, Thyra, the adornment of Denmark” The second stone, (c.983-985) reads “King Harald made these monuments in memory of Gorm his father and Thyra his mother. It was this Harald who won all Denmark and Norway, and made the Danes Christian.” The translations and dates are from several sources, and photocopies were provided ( Cultural Atlas of the Viking World by Colleen Batey, Helen Clarke, R.I. Page,and Neil S. Price, edited by James Graham-Campbell - pg 118 includes information on the stones, and their inscriptions; Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga, edited by William W. Fitzhugh and Elisabeth I. Ward pg. 73 includes a picture of one of the stones. Pages 67 and 77 include information on the inscriptions; The Vikings and their Origins: Scandinavia in the First Millenium by David M. Wilson page 130 has another translation of the 2nd stone (c 985)). All references to both stones translate the name of Harald’s mother as “Thyra”. The Royal Danish Embassy's website ( http://www.denmarkemb.org/kngsquns.html ) also lists "Thyra (Tyre) Danebod (?-935)" as the wife of Gorm the Old.
    Ulfsvina is intended to be a descriptive byname meaning “wolf’s friend”. The Old Norse Name, by Geirr Bassi Haraldsson indicates that nicknames are a common part of Norse names, and while most people did use a patryonymic, it was not unknown to go without one. The client documented this byname through the use of an on-line dictionary of Old Icelandic: A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic (1910, 551 pp), by Geir T. Zoëga found at http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/ Vina ( h491.html ) is defined as "female friend” and for Ulf is listed as ( h458.html ) “úlfr (-s, -ar), m. wolf; ala e-m úlfa, to breed wolves for one, plan mischief (spyr ek {th}at frá, at Danir muni enn ala oss úlfa); fig. enemy.” Photocopies of this were also provided. In Geirr Bassi, there are several descriptive bynames or nicknames which demonstrate that this sort of construction and meaning are plausible. barnakarl - “friend to children” (pg 19) feilan - “wolf-cub” (pg 21) gyl{dh}ir - “howler, wolf” (pg 22)
    She cares most about the meaning of the surname, which she gives as "wolf's friend", and is interested in a female name authentic for "Norse/Icelandic" language/culture.
  31. Tyrfingr von Wolfsburg. (Caerthe) Device resubmission (kingdom). Azure, a mullet of seven points and a wolf statant contourny maintaining a sheaf of arrows inverted argent.
    His name is in process on the April 2003 LOI, which should be decided on the August 2003 LOAR. His previous device submission, Azure, a wolf statant to sinister maintaining a sheaf of arrows inverted argent, on a chief sable fimbriated a mullet of seven points argent, was returned for fimbriating a chief (which is not allowed by current precedent.) This resubmission addresses that issue by removing the chief entirely and putting the mullet directly on the field.

 

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
September 2003 Letter of Response
September 2003 Letter of Intent
January 2004 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.

Anyone who wants to may send me a letter of comment by e-mail regarding this Letter of Presentation.
Please have your commentary on this letter to me by mid-August. Please send commentary to: alia 'at' swcp.com