Outlands LoI dated 2011-03-31

31 March 2011

From the Office of Rampart Herald

Baron Randal Carrick (Randall Jackson)


Unto the Sovereigns and members of the College of Arms of the Society, does Randal Carrick, Rampart Herald send his greetings. What follows is the March Letter of Intent for the Kingdom of the Outlands. I would like to thank the following heralds for providing commentary for this letter: Master Louis-Philippe Mitouard, Catspaw Herald Extraordinary; THL Eric Morrison, Hawk's Hollow Pursuivant; THL Ailinn Shadowfox; Lady Leonor Ruiz de Lison; Editha Filia Rolandi; Lord Andrew von Otelingen, Barbican Pursuivant; Ines Alfon; and Gawain of Miskbridge, Green Anchor Herald.

It is my intent to register this March the following items from the Outlands College of Heralds:

1: Alditha de la Tye - New Name & New Device

Azure, a quatrefoil Or between four crescents conjoined in saltire at the points argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language (13th C English) most important.
Culture (13th C English) most important.

Gender: Female. Submitter cares most about the language/culture - 13c England.

Changes accepted.

[Alditha] ­

- By the late Charles Wareing Endell Bardsley; page 45 of A dictionary of English and Welsh surnames: with special American instances (http://books.google.com/books?id=e85rAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=DICTIONARY+OF+ENGLISH+AND+WELSH +SURNAMES&hl=en&ei=x38wTenBK4bWgQelaGmCw&sa=X&oi=bookresult&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=OCDEQ6AEwAA#v=sn ippet&q=alditha&f=false)

- As noted in the Academy of Saint Gabriel report 3379, April 2009 From: Gwenlliana Clutterbooke, fifth paragraph

down " ..... There are several instances of <Aldith> in the 13th century. [3) This is the vernacular form of the name and would have been pronounce

roughly AWL-dith . The Latinized form would be <Alditha>." (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/3379.txt)


Castle notes: Alditha also can be found at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/reaney.cgi?Aldith

Alditha 1189, 1200, 1210 (W); 1212 Allday; 1222, 1228 (S);1243, 1300 (E); 1313 (W

[de la] - of the


[Tye] - By the late Charles Wareing Endell Bardsley; specifically page 774 of A dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames: with Special American instances (http://books.google.com/books?printsec=frontcover&dq=DICTIONARY+OF+ENGLISH+AND+WELSH+SURNAMES&ei=x38 wTenBK4bWgQelaGmCw&ct=result&pg=PA45&id=e85rAAAAMAAJ#v=onepage&q=Tye&f=false)

Blazon originally submitted as Azure, within a lunel argent, a quaterfoil Or, Blazon was changed based on past precedent given the difficulty of accurately describing a "lunel" since the number of crescents can differ.

2: Conall Óg mac Dabhídh - New Alternate Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in January of 2005, via the Outlands.

Daiyama Chotaro Motohisa

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Meaning (spelling: first letters in English translation beginning somewhat with CMD of submitter's name) most important.

Gender:Male.Submitter cares most about the spelling (first letters in English translation beginning somewhat with CMD of submitter's name) and language/culture (Japanese).

Daiyama] -

Dai(proto) - is documented as actually occurring in period as a "prefix" in somewhat frequent surnames of the period, and along with -yama(deu) occurring quite frequently for the suffix

(Bryant, 2004), creates a very plausible myoji.

Daiyama (aka Big Mountain) is a geographical-type allusion for a surname, which is accurately to in other such "surname" constructions of period Japan.

[Chotaro] -

Cho- (proto) is documented as actually occurring in period as a prefix in somewhat frequent intimate names of the period and along with -taro(deu) for he "suffix", creates a very plausible zokumyo.

[Motohisa] - is documented as actually occurring in period as a somewhat frequent given name (Throndardottir, 2001) (NCMJ 2nd Ed, pg. 165), creating a very plausible nanori.

References: Trondardottir, S (1999). Name construction in Medieval Japan. Columbia, MO: Potboiler press.

Throndrdottir, S and The Academy of Saint Gabriel (2001), Japanese formal masculine given names,


Bryant, Anthony J (2004) Japanese garb:Japanese names(written permission given for attached copies, July 2009)


one internal commenter was a little uncomfortable with the yobina: Solveig glosses "cho(u)-" as "Long/Oldest/Senior" and "-taro(u)" as "First Son", but we do not have the Japanese onomastics expertise to comment further.

3: Jakob Narr - New Name & New Device

Lozengy gules and argent, a jester's bauble vested vert sticked proper, between two hawk's bells Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language (16th C German) most important.
Culture (16th C German) most important.

Changes accepted

[Jakob] - Jakob y Kayela, 1437, Germanic http://heraldry.sca.org//laurel.names/FinnishNamesArticle.htm

also: "Late Period German Masculine Given Names: Names from 15th Century Plauen" by Talan Gwynek (Brian M. Scott) lists "Jakob", http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/germmasc/plauen15.html.

"16th-17th Century Hessian Given Names and Surnames" by Kunegundis filia Theoderici, http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/kunegund/hessenames.html has two instances of Jakob in the 1580's.


[Narr] - Klaus Narr, 1520, Dictionary of German Names, H. Bahlow, header "Narr"

blazon changed from Lozengy gules and argent, a jester's bauble vested vert sticked proper, between two bells Or to indicate the type of bells

4: Jantien van Vranckenvoert - New Name & New Device

Sable, an escallop within a bordure argent

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
No major changes.
Language (undefined) most important.

Submitter's previous name Jentien Van der Roet and Device Argent, a pale sable, overall a triskele of tulips slipped and leaved counterchanged, were returned on May 2004 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2004-04-lop/0405-lor.html) for the following reasons:


The documentation provided supported Jantien, not Jentien. Although the submission form states that there is support for the 'a'/'e' swap, none was provided (or possibly I did not see it clearly enough). Secondly, Van der Roet was submitted as a constructed byname meaning "of the soot", based on the examples van de Weyden ("of the meadow") and van der Zee ("of the sea"), but "soot" is a pretty far cry from "meadow" and "sea". Both meadows and seas (or at least a ship on the sea) are reasonable literal locations to be from, and one is only likely to be from some soot in a figurative sense, and naming practices in period tended to be much more literal ("Crookshanks") than figurative ("the Indecisive"). Also, I'd really like to see some additional examples, to have a better idea of the pattern, especially since one of them is during the "grey period" between 1600 and 1650.


[Jantien] - "Historisches Deutsches Vornamenbuch", von Wilfried Seibicke, Band2, F-K, Walter de Gruter-Berlin-New York, p.524.

[van Vranckenvoert] - Locative surnames based on the place of residence, van Vranckenvoert1422 http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/dutch/dutch15surnames.html

Originally submitted on the form as "Jantien van Vrankenvoert", submitter was contacted and acknowledged the at the missing "c" in the surname was a typo, and was therefor corrected by Rampart to conform to the provided documentation


5: Readstan, Canton of - New Appeal of Laurel Return of Name Change

OSCAR NOTE: filing name should not be registered for a primary name change.


Bloodstone Keep, Canton Of


Old Item: Readstan, Canton of, to be released.

The name was returned on the August 2005 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2005/08/05-08lar.html) for the following reasons:


No documentation was submitted and none found to suggest that bloodstone was a reasonable descriptive element for a castle name. In this case, the construction is argued as surname + keep. So, to be used in a castle name Bloodstone must be a reasonable inherited surname. Although the word bloodstone is dated in the OED to 1551, this is as a type of stone. It was argued that the name might be a sort of descriptive byname. Indeed, the word is registerable as a late period nickname, but a nickname found only in the latter half of the 16th century is not an appropriate candidate for an inherited surname in our period. The only evidence of Bloodstone as a surname is from a genealogy site, but such sites have long been noted as not appropriate for name documentation purposes.


The group then submitted their current name of "Readstan, Canton Of" which was registered in March 2007 (via Outlands)(http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2007/03/07-03lar.html)

Now the group wishes to revisit their original submission, providing more documentation supporting the name "Bloodstone". Because this submission involves an item already ruled on by Laurel, Kingdom is treating this as an appeal of the original return.

[Bloodstone] - In England there were examples of castles being named for the area which they protect (i.e.Framligham Castle). Thus, the stated reasoning that Bloodstone must be an inherited surname is incorrect. Period usage would indicate that a place name is also acceptable.

There are a large number of place names in England, that have the name element -tun (farm settlement), which over time has become -stone (or -ton, -ston, -stan, etc). Frequently, the first part of the place name refers to the family (or head of the family), who was the primary tenant or owner of that area. This gives us names such as Adderstone, which, according to the Institute for Name Studies at the University o.,f Nottingham, derives from : "Eadred's farm/settlement", OE pers.n., OE tun" (http://www.nottingham.ac.uk./~aezins//kepn/detailpop.php?placeno=13757)

In the index to 1332 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Lincolnshire, England, we find listed one William Blod (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/LincLSR/GivW1.html), blod, being the old English version for blood.

Thus, Bloodstone could be constructed of Blod (a family name) and -tun (or -stone, meaning "a family setelement")

This conclusion closely follows the example given for construction of a place name in Rules of Submission.

[Keep] - submitters provide no documentation for the addition of "Keep". However, on the May 2010 LOAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2010/05/10-05lar.html), Laurel provided the argument for including the word Keep in a placename in the registration of Rammes Keep:


...There is a pattern of English placenames created by appending surnames to existing placenames. Siren found that "[...] the Middle English Dictionary (s.v. ram) gives Rammes as a 1377 placename". Hitching & Hitching (p. lvii) date Keepe to 1602 as an English surname. Bardsley (p. 441 s.n. Keep) dates Roger Kep to I Edw III. In the 8/03 LoAR, Laurel ruled:


Sandy is a placename, dated as Sandeie to 1086 in Mills (s.n. Sandy). There is a pattern of English placenames created by appending surnames to existing placenames. Examples of this include Chilton Foliot 1221 (Mills, p. 78 s.n. Chilton), Northone Brun c. 1266 (Mills, p. 244 s.n. Norton), and Saunford Peverel 1275 (Mills, p. 284 s.n. Sampford). As Stream is a surname, dated to 1279 in the form ate Streme (Reaney & Wilson, s.n. Stream), a location Sandy located on or near an estate owned by the Stream family could come to be known as Sandy Stream. [Leah of Sandy Stream, 08/2003 LoAR, A-Caid]


Given that the element "Bloodstone" likewise relies on the justification of using a family name "Blod", it seems very unlikely that the full name "Bloodstone Keep" is registerable. However, The submitter states that they are willing to accept the deletion of "Keep", if that will make the name registerable.

Internal commenters are split in their opinions of this appeal: some felt that this is an attempt at "stunt documentation", others felt that there was at least a colorable argument justifying the name Bloodstone.

Respectfully submitted,

Baron Randal Carrick, Rampart Herald

Kingdom of the Outlands