28 May 2005
From the Office of White Stag Principal Herald Lady Sorcha MacLeod (Tammy Ackerson)
Lady Sorcha MacLeod (Tammy Ackerson)
UNTO the Outlands College of Heralds, the esteemed submitters, and all others who come by these letters, on this 28th day of May 2005, A.S. XXXX (2005 CE), does Lady Sorcha MacLeod, White Stag Principal Herald, send greetings.
following items were sent to
1- Katrine van Deventer. New Badge. Per chevron ployé purpure and argent, a mullet of eight points issuant.
Her name was registered in May 2003.
This submission is an appeal of a return in kingdom for conflict. The original return (May 2004 Letter of Response: http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2004-04-lop/0405-lor.html) reads:
This device is being returned for conflict with Katya Anna Sylvan, Per chevron throughout purpure and argent, two compass stars argent and a fox sejant gules, with only one CD for the change in number of the primary charge group (1 vs 3), and Rivenstar, Barony of, Azure, a riven star argent, with only one CD for changing the field (azure vs per chevron purpure and argent).
The appeal, written by Lord Pendar the Bard, reads:
The device of Pendar the Bard, registered in December 2002, which was used as a basis for this badge is: Per chevron ployé Or and azure, a demi-fleur-de-lys issuant from the line of division azure.
If the same logic that was applied to Katrine's
was applied to Pendar’s, then it would have been returned for conflict
Elwyn of Snow Hill (8/79): Per chevron azure, ermined argent, and
base a fleur-de-lis azure. With only 1 CD for changes to the field
the move to base of the fleur in Elwyn's device is forced). We'd like
to see a
White Stag notes that applying the same logic to Pendar's device vs. Elwyn's, there is a CD for changes to the field, and there should be another for the difference between a fleur-de-lys and a demi-fleur-de-lys:
[a jester's cap vs. a jester's hood] [There
is a CD]
for the difference between a jester's cap and a jester's hood; the
the fabric which would normally extend down over the shoulders and well
the chest, with large dags, and a hole in the front for the face to
through. It was the consensus of those
While some may argue that there is no such difference between the two based on the return of Elspeth Fitzwilliam's device on the Dec99 LoAR, the return indicates that it was the manner in which the fleurs were drawn that brought in the conflict, and not the actual difference between fleurs and demi-fleurs:
This also conflicts with Alienor Beatrice Lucrezia (SCA) Azure, four fleurs-de-lys in cross bases to center argent., with one CD for arrangement, but nothing for the difference between the demi fleurs-de-lys and the complete fleurs-de-lys as drawn.
2- Lyonnete la Rousse. New Badge. Azure, a chimera statant to sinister Or within a bordure lozengy sable and argent.
3- Murchadh Mac Diarmada. Withdraw Device. Per pale Or and sable, a cross formy throughout counterchanged. The submitter wishes to withdraw this device, originally appearing on the Outlands March 2005 Letter of Intent.
4- Murchadh MacDiarmada. Device Resubmission. Per pale sable and Or, a cross formy throughout counterchanged.
The submitter has obtained a Letter of
Conflict from Dafydd Morrison Per pale sable and Or, a cross of
5- Rab Wylkyn. New Name. (see returns for device)
6- Sile O' Daragh. New Name. (see returns for device)
The following items were returned for further work:
1- Estevan de Sepultura. New Device. Argent a wyvern erect azure tail nole 3 lozenges sable 2 and 1
I was unable to find any previous registration or submission of this name, and no name submission accompanied it. This device must therefore be returned per AH II.A.1.
2- Giovanna figlia di Meir. New Name. New Device. Argent, on a heart gules a dragonfly argent, chief gules.
Commentary indicates that the proper manner to denote Giovanna daughter of Meir would be simply "Giovanna di Meir." Noted on the LoP as "Submitter accepts all changes," the forms actually indicate that the submitter accepts no major changes. Unfortunately, that means that this name is not correctly formed without dropping the entire word "figlia," which would constitute a major change, and this name must therefore be returned. Please note that the s-gabriel website and its reports are not on the no-photocopy list, and copies of the full report or copies of the leading pages and the pages on which the name elements are found are required to be attached - one copy per each copy of the form. Copies of webpages must include the url and the date accessed on each page of the copies.
device is returned for lack of a name to send it forward with. The submitter is cautioned that the chief
should be one-fifth to one-third the height of the field, and that her
closer to one-seventh the height. It is
possible that it might be returned at
3- Hammar Bowswayer. New Name. New Device. Per chevron inverted argent and or, a phoenix gules.
Commentary indicates that S. Gabriel report 1915 identifies "Hammar" as a byname. This name has no given name, and is therefore not properly constructed . Listed on the LoP as "Submitter accepts all changes," the forms actually indicate that the submitter accepts no changes. Please be aware that the s-gabriel website and its reports are not on the no-photocopy list, and copies of the full report or copies of the leading pages and the pages on which the name elements are found are required to be attached - one copy per each copy of the form. Copies of webpages must include the url and the date accessed on each page of the copies. One commenter suggests as an alternative:
tend to recommend the Old Norse masculine name <Ha/mundr> as the
that sounds the most like the submittor's proposed name yet can be
documented as an Old Norse personal name. <Ha/mundr> occurs in
Scandinavia from the time of the settlement of
http://www.sofi.se/SOFIU/runlex/ s.n. <Ha/mundr>).
Please also be aware that "Three Hundred Viking Names from the Sagas" is not a suitable source for our purposes - names have been normalized, mistranslated, and misdated, and the source includes names of mythical beings. If the submitter wishes to be put in contact with Mistress Gunnvor, the Viking Answer Lady, that might assist him in the creation of a suitable Viking name. Please note that the s-gabriel website and its reports are not on the no-photocopy list, and copies of the full report or copies of the leading pages and the pages on which the name elements are found are required to be attached - one copy per each copy of the form. Copies of webpages must include the url and the date accessed on each page of the copies.
The device is returned for redraw and conflict in addition to a lack of name to send it forward with. The line of division is neither high enough to be per chevron inverted, nor low enough to be a point pointed, blurring the line between the two and violating RfS VII.7. It is much closer to a point pointed, which brings in issues of contrast, since a point pointed is a charge, and must have good contrast with the field. Further, a phoenix is a single charge, comprised of a flame and the top half to two-thirds of an eagle - this depiction is of an eagle and a base of flames. One depiction of a heraldic phoenix may be found at: http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/digital/heraldry/charges/birds.html, though the submitter should be careful to avoid copyright infringement in the redraw. Conflicts, assuming a properly drawn phoenix and line of division, are with Laura Hawkwood - May of 1981 (via the East): Ermine, on a pile Or a phoenix gules and Morgan Morfydd Gwilym - October of 1982 (via the Middle): Pean, a phoenix displayed gules, issuant from flames, maintaining in its beak a dexter hand couped proper, with a single CD for the field in both cases.
4- Rab Wylkyn. New Device. Per bend sinister sable and gules, a bend sinister argent between and eye of Ra and a rose slipped and leaved bendwise sinister Or.
This device is returned for lack of documentation of an "eye of Ra" as a period heraldic charge, or a suitable artistic motif or artifact known to period. There is precedent that the charge is not suitable, considering returns of designs using an "eye of Horus," as found in:
The Eye of Horus is an
abstract symbol or combination of symbols whose meaning was not
Europeans in the SCA period. Unlike the Eye of Horus, the occasional
letter found in medieval and Renaissance heraldry were part of the
and symbolic iconography of
5- Sile O' Daragh. New Device. Per chevron inverted abased Or, on a heart gules a rose slipped and leaved bendwise Or and two chevronelles inverted abased gules.
This device is returned for redraw in an attempt to save the submitter excessive time. It is a borderline case, and one commenter states:
I strongly suspect that the line of division is too far abased to be acceptable. The argent really appears to be an unblazonable variant of a base, not a field partition.
There is also a possible contrast issue. The line of division doesn't approach dividing the field in half. If the field isn't evenly divided, RfS VIII.2.b.iii allowing any tinctures might not apply.
This last is particularly important to note - RfS VIII.2.b.iii states:
Elements evenly divided into two parts, per saltire, or quarterly may use any two tinctures or furs.
For example, a field quarterly could be composed of azure and gules, argent and Or, Or and ermine, or vert and vairy gules and argent.
the abased line of division causes the field to be unevenly divided,
contrast of the two metals is in violation of this rule, and I
that it would be returned at
Thus ends my Letter of Response.
In service and duty, Sorcha, White Stag
Sorcha, White Stag