Last modified: February 23, 2004

Outlands College of Heralds

From the office of the Rampart Herald Lady Alia Marie de Blois

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
January 2004 Letter of Presentation
February 2004 Letter of Response
February 2004 Letter of Intent
June 2004 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.

Commentary was provided by: Lady Aryanhwy merch Catmael; knute; Gawain, Green Anchor Herald; Lady Mór inghean Chathail; and the fine folks of the Caerthan Commenting group. Thank you all.

Present at the Rampart Decision Meeting: Alia Marie de Blois, Rampart Herald; Anne Aliz de Basle; Charles Robert Blackstone.

(Unless otherwise noted, all submittors will accept all changes, have no authenticity requests, and wish a name with the "common sense" gender, based on the submitted name.)

The following submissions were sent on to Laurel and the College of Arms for final decisions:

  1. Ailleann ingen Fhiodhbhuidhe. New Name.
    While the form said that Aileann is from Irish Names from O'Corrain and MacGuire under the heading Aileann on page 19, the spelling that is actually there is Ailleann. Therefore, I have changed it to the documented form.
  2. Catherine de Northewoode. New Name and New Device. Sable, on a pile inverted ployé between two crosses of ermine spots bottoms to center Or a cross of ermine spots bottoms to center azure.
  3. Cecelia Corr Mhaire. Resubmitted Badge. (Fieldless) On an amphora vert, a bowen knot crosswise argent.
    NB: even when/if this gets registered, she's still got another free badge resubmission.
  4. Elaisse de Garrigues. Resubmitted Device. Gules, on a chevron sable fimbriated five fleurs-de-lys palewise Or.
    Nice device.
  5. Fína ingen Chionaith. New Name.
    Cionaith is found in the "Index of Names in Irish Annals" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan under the heading Cinead (, dated to 932 as part of the name Echtighern, mac Cionaith, tigherna Ua Ceinnselaigh. Since the submittor is female, I used ingen instead of mac, and lenited the name (based on commentary from Aryanhwy merch Catmael). Submitted as Fína Mac Kenna, where the byname was an undated header form on page 175 of The Surnames of Ireland, by MacLysaght, the name was changed to match better temporally and culturally. This is the closest I could find that sounds similar (at least, as best I can tell) - I have requested better suggestions and/or "it was just fine to begin with" from the College of Arms, who will give such suggestions to Laurel.
  6. Mary Tynker. New Name and New Device. Or, a triskele sable, within each arm a roundel, a bordure gules.
    Submitted as "... a triskelion arrondy", this omitted the tincture. Additionally, this is effectively a "triskele", a triskelion arrondy". Therefore, I have reblazoned it as "Or, a triskele sable, within each arm a roundel, a bordure gules".
  7. Meadhbh inghean Imchada uí Flaithbertaig. New Name and New Device. Quarterly vert and argent, in bend sinister two cats sejant respectant purpure.
    Submitted as "... a cat sejant and a cat sejant contourny purpure", I reblazoned to "... two cats sejant respectant purpure".
  8. Samuel Tynker. Resubmitted Device (kingdom). Per pale sable and argent, a mask of tragedy and a mask of comedy counterchanged and on a chief gules a crescent Or.
    It really would be nicer if the masks were a bit bigger, so they filled the space better. Also, commentors suggested that "in fess" could be dropped from the blazon.
  9. Tancred d'Avignon. New Name and New Device. Sable, in pale a ram's head cabossed between two fleurs-de-lys Or.
    Submitted as "d'Avighnon", I removed the stray 'h'. Also, I explicitly noted that the ram's head is cabossed.
  10. Tyrfingr von Wolfsberg. Resubmitted Device (kingdom). Azure, a wolf statant to sinister, maintaining a sheaf of arrows inverted, in canton a mullet of seven points argent, and a ford proper.

The following submissions were returned to the submittor for further work:

  1. Hawk's Hollow, Canton of. Resubmitted Badge (kingdom). Gules, on a pile throughout engrailed Or a hawk stooping, wings addorsed, sable.
    This device is being returned for conflict with "Gules, on a pile engrailed Or, a thistle proper". There is only one CD, for changes to the tertiary charge (thistle proper vs. hawk sable). It is worth noting that with this the submitted emblazon, the blazon Or chausse invected gules, a hawk stooping, wings addorsed, sable is equally valid. The only other possible CD is between a pile and a pile throughout. There are three reasonably relevant precedents:

    Gules chaussé Or, a seahorse sejant counterchanged] Conflict with ... Or, a pile gules. By long standing precedent, chaussé fields can alternatively be blazoned as having a pile, and both forms must be considered for conflict. Or, on a pile gules, a seahorse sejant counterchanged conflicts with Or, a pile gules, with only one CD for the addition of the tertiary charge. [Samhthann ni Giolla Mhuire, 10/99, R-Calontir]

    [Per chevron throughout Or and gules, two standing balances and a lion rampant counterchanged.] Conflict with ... Or, on a pile inverted cotised gules, a Bengal tiger rampant argent, marked sable. Helmut's device could as easily be blazoned Or, on a pile inverted between two standing balances gules a lion rampant Or. Therefore there is no [CD for] change in tincture only of the tertiary charges. After consideration we also decided that because a pile should be drawn as throughout, or nearly so, the cotises count as two charges. Therefore there is only a single CD for the change in type of the secondary charges. [Helmut Kruger, 09/99, R-Atlantia]

    As a general rule we grant a difference between an ordinary throughout and its non-throughout form. Chevrons are a bit of a special case, since "throughout" has a different meaning when applied to them, referring to the point touching the top of the shield rather than the ends. The distinction between chevrons and chevrons throughout is, in period heraldry, one of regional style or artistic preference. The same coat may be found depicted both ways. We would, however, grant difference between a chevron (whether "throughout" or not) and a chevron couped, i.e. with the ends cut off without touching the sides of the shield. This is identical to our practice with other ordinaries, such as fesses throughout vs fesses couped. (Meadhbh inghean Róis, 4/99 p. 12)

    These three precedents tell us that a) a pile is considered nearly the equivalent of chausse, which is throughout, b) there is usually a CD between an ordinary throughout and the same ordinary not throughout, but that c) chevrons and chevrons throughout do not, and d) a pile is expected to be drawn nearly throughout (other precedent also states that there should not be enough space below a pile for any other charge). From this, it seems reasonable to deduce that there is not a CD between a pile and a pile throughout. Therefore
    When resubmitting, the group should be aware the badge of Colm Dubh, (Fieldless) A dove stooping, wings addorsed, sable. There would be no difference between Colm's dove and a hawk in an identical posture.

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
January 2004 Letter of Presentation
February 2004 Letter of Response
February 2004 Letter of Intent
June 2004 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.