Last modified: July 8, 2004

Outlands College of Heralds

From the office of the Rampart Herald Lady Alia Marie de Blois rampart@outlandsheralds.org

UNTO the members of the College of Heralds of the Kingdom of the Outlands, and all others who generously give of their time and talents in commentary on this Letter of Presentation, upon this 10th day of December, A.S. XXXVIII (2003 CE), does Lady Alia Marie de Blois, Rampart Herald, send greetings and those commendations which are appropriately due.

Anyone who wants to may send me a letter of comment regarding this Letter of Presentation. I prefer them via email.
Please send commentary to: alia 'at' swcp.com or the address above.
Please have your commentary on this letter to me by early/mid January - Rampart decision meetings are now scheduled for the second Thursday of the month.

For those newer heralds who are interested in learning to do commentary, I've put in a few footnotes to indicate directions to take with research and commentary. Mostly, these are the types of questions that I'll be needing answers to when I make decisions. Just present your research in a clear way, including citations (URLs, book titles/dates/authors/pages, quotes, rules, prior Laurel precedent), so that I know what you're talking about. For conflict checking, it really helps to cite which rules apply, or if there are any particular precedents.

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
December 2003 Letter of Presentation
January 2004 Letter of Response
January 2004 Letter of Intent
May 2004 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.

On behalf of Mistress Tatiana Pavlovna Sokolova, White Stag Principal Herald, I present the following items for your consideration:

(Unless otherwise noted, all submittors will accept all changes, have no authenticity requests, and wish a name with the "common sense" gender, based on the submitted name.)

Caer Galen, Barony of. (Caer Galen) Heraldic Title. Rayonny Pursuivant.
The barony's name was registered in May of 1980. This heraldic title is for use of the Baronial herald. Their device has a prominent rayonny line of division.
Charles Robert Blackstone. (al-Barran) New Badge. (Fieldless) A cross raguly gyronny sable and Or.
His name was registered in August of 2003. [1]
Dulcia de Léon. (Caer Galen) New Name and New Device. Azure, a chevron rompu inverted between a decrescent and three dragonflies argent.
Dulcia is found "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames" by Talan Gwynek (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/reaneyAG.html) under the header Douce, dated to 1275 as a Latinized form. de Léon is a Spanish locative meaning "from Léon", as found in "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" by Juliana de Luna (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/isabella/locative.html) (although without the accent). I'm sure someone's got a handy source for this location closer to 1275. [2]
She cares most about the sound.
Geoffrey fitz Robert. (al-Barran) New Badge. (Fieldless) A compass star quarterly azure and gules.
His name was originally registered as Harold of Baumaris in August of 1991, and changed to Geoffrey fitz Robert on the March 2003 LOAR (and the old one released). [3]
Gwydion ap Llewelyn. (Citadel) Resubmitted Name and Unpended Device. Vert, a dragon passant Or, armed and langued gules, on a chief Or, three triskeles vert.
Previously submitted as Gwydion ap Llewellyn ab Cymru, it was returned at Kingdom in July of 2000 for "being unregistrable in its present form" (there was some concern that Gwydion may have been limited to supernatural heros in literature; Llewellyn would only have 3 l's in period; ab Cymru meaning "son of Wales" doesn't make much sense in an already Welsh name). The device was pended at that time, and is now unpended.
The name is here documented from CA #66, A Welsh Miscellany, which lists both Gwydion and Llywelyn as Men's given names. Also provided are copies of A History of Wales by John Davies, which describes two Welsh rulers named Llywelyn who lived in the early 1200's. Also, I found that "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names" by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/welsh13.html) lists Lewelyn as a variant of Llywelyn. So, is the spelling Llewelyn an acceptable variant? [4]
He cares most about the language/culture, and is interested in authenticity for "Wales, circa 1280" language/culture.
While not mentioned in the original return/pend, in the line drawings for the device, the line of division for the chief is rather low, but on the colored forms it is in the right place. Commentors, please peruse them both.
Magdalena Flores. (Caer Galen) Resubmitted Name and Unpended Device. Ermine, on an egg gules, a fleur-de-lys Or.
The original name, Magdalena Violente de Flores, was returned at Kingdom in September 2003, both for using 'Violente' when the documentation had 'Violante' and because Flores is a descriptive byname meaning "Flowers" and therefore "de" was not appropriate. The device was acceptable, but without a name to go with it, it had to be pended at that time. This resubmission addresses these issues by dropping both Violente and de, generating a generally more authentic name. Yay. Also of note, even though this is an unpending for the device, a new form was submitted which does have rather more ermine spots on it, making it a better depiction of an ermine field. [5]
All parts of this name are documented from Juliana de Luna's "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" at: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/isabella/ Magdelena is documented from the section on Women's Given names ( WomensGivenNames.html ). Flores is documented from the section on "other" surnames ( OtherSurnames.html ), meaning "Flowers".
She cares most about the language/culture, and is interested in authenticity for "late period Spain".
Rhiannon ferch Fychen. (Citadel) Resubmitted Name and Resubmitted Device. Or, an oak tree eradiated vert and on a chief azure, a dove Or.
Her previous name submission, Rhiannon ap Caer Rayna ab Cymru, was returned in July 2000 at Kingdom, because (to paraphrase) a) the name phrase 'ap Caer Rayna' neither documented the formation of Caer Rayna nor does a name meaning "son of" a place make sense, especially in a female name, and b) 'ab Cymru' meaning "son of Wales" doesn't make much sense in an already Welsh name, especially a female one. There was also some concern that Rhiannon is not a period name for humans, but even at that point, it had been declared SCA-compatible, so that wasn't really a reason for return.
This submission addresses the two main points by dropping the problematic parts, and chosing a new byname. Rhiannon remains SCA-Compatible. Fychen is documented by a copy of A History of Wales by John Davies, which on page 143, says "... Among them was Ednyfed Fychan, the distain of Gwynedd from 1216 to 1246 and the ancestor of the Tudors of Anglesey." A quick websearch didn't turn up anything for 'fychen' other than this submittor and another SCA member, and one for 'fychan' turned up more references than I could easily skim through. In any case, I wasn't able to determine if Fychen/Fychan would be suitable for the formation of a patronymic as submitted here. [6]
Her previous, identical device submission was also returned in July 2000 at Kingdom, because the depiction of the dove on the chief was unidentifiable as a bird, nor in a standard heraldic posture. This resubmission addresses this issue by redrawing the dove in a more standardized way, although without the head tuft that distinguishes a dove from other birds. It appears to be volant, wings addorsed - I'm not sure if/how this needs to be specified. Also, the line of division for the chief is rather low (on both line and color, unlike Gwydion's) - is it returnably so? [7] Please conflict check and style check anyway, since I'll probably be contacting the local herald about a before-decision-time redraw. Also, the line and color drawings are not the same - commentors, please peruse them both.
She cares most about the language/culture, and is interested in authenticity for "Wales, circa 1280" language/culture.

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet
December 2003 Letter of Presentation
January 2004 Letter of Response
January 2004 Letter of Intent
May 2004 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.

[1] It'd be a good idea to check on armory precedents to determine exactly which types of crosses conflict with each other. There is an unofficial "Cross Conflict Table" website you can probably find, as well. (sorry, I don't have the URL handy) If there isn't a directly relevant precedent, and you can take a look at some images of different crosses, feel free to state your opinion on if a certain type of cross would/should conflict with a cross raguly - it may simply not have come up yet for a decision. Also, take a careful look at the rules on conflict checking for fieldless badges.

[2] Yep, if you've got a really solid resource on an earlier date for Leon, especially with an accent, especially in a No Photocopy source (see the Appendices of the Admin Handbook), please do put that in your commentary. Also, for bonus points, check on precedents on mixed English-Spanish names.

[3] It'd be a good idea to check on armory precedents to determine exactly which types of charges conflict with compass stars. Also, take a careful look at the rules on conflict checking for fieldless badges.

[4] Another, unwritten question is: are there any precedents on the registrability of Gwydion? Also, if you can find, in a solid resource (such as a perusal of the Medieval Names Archive or the Laurel Education Page or items on the No Photocopy list) a documented example of the spelling the submittor wants, that would be nice to have.

[5] Again with the precedent checking. What types of charges conflict with eggs? Also, take a careful look at the rules on conflict checking for tertiary charges (charges on charges), since the fleur-de-lys is a tertiary charge.

[6] This is an implicit request for someone else to look into this (try the Medieval Names Archive or the Laurel Education Page as well). Remember that genealogical research is rarely suitable for SCA purposes - there is no way to tell if a name has been modernized, normalized, or pulled out of thin air. If you can determine that it's an adjective (that is, making it a descriptive byname), that would be good to know. If you can determine that it is a given name, that would be good to know.

[7] This is sort of a judgement call issue on whether or not the chief extends far enough down on the field to be confused with a 'per fess' line of division. Take a look at some period arms if you can, and then, say what you think.