Last Updated November 27, 2002
Letters of comment were received from Da'ud ibn Auda, al-Jamal Herald; Gawain of Miskbridge, Green Anchor Herald; Aryanhwy merch Catmael; cnut; Margaret Hepburn of Ardrossan; the Caerthe commenting group, Lady Sorcha (Aspen Pursuivant), Lady Katrein, mi'lady Mor, Lord Hakon, and mi'lady Mabbina; and the Caer Galen commenting group, Regana van Kortrijk and Jeanne-Marie Dubois.
[al-Jamal] - (Device): "The chief is, as noted in the ILoP, color on color. RfS VII.7.a. requires that "Elements must be recognizable solely from their appearance." The hooded hawk's head is problematical. It looks like an inverted bag of some kind with a hook or spur issuing to dexter. In discussing the reasons for returning a harp issuing from a harp bag, Laurel noted: "The collocation of charges is ... not clearly identifiable at a distance.... The theory that a scabbard or a quiver derive their identifiability from the items contained does not seem to be supported by the evidence.... The design depends on a specific form of harp bag, which is not reconstructible from the blazon.... Many forms of harp bag or case are possible, but the design depends on using this particular form. Unlike the quiver or the scabbard, the identifiability of this charge depends on the clear identification of the harp which is seriously diminished by its fesswise posture and the fact that a considerable part of the visible wooden harp, which is brown, lies on the vert lining." (Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane, LoAR 21 February 1988, p. 13) With the submission at hand, we do not even have the advantage of a specific shape to the bag."
[Green Anchor] - (Device): "Agree with your reservations on this. The pheons are inverted."
[cnut] - (Device): "Hooded is an attribute of a whole hawk, but that doesn't mean that it is acceptable for just the head. This is unidentifiable."
[Caerthe] - (Device): "We would agree with Ramparts decision to return this device for the same reasons given. There was also a recommendation from Lord Hakon for the client to look up "Falconry" by Emma Ford for a more accurate picture of a hooded hawk. "
[Caer Galen] - (Device): "The points on the pheons should be blazoned 'to chief' as the SCA default is to base. PD2.562"
ACTION: returned for identifiability issues and for low contrast between the field and the chief.
[al-Jamal] - (Badge): "The hawk's leg is "palewise" by default."
[Green Anchor] - (Badge): "He hasn’t yet gotten the concept of trian aspect. The sword still needs to be redrawn in a non-perspective manner."
[cnut] - (Badge): "(Fieldless) A brown hawk's leg palewise sustaining by its blade a sword fesswise proper. This looks trian aspect to me, violating RfS VIII.1.c.i. Clear - redraw."
[Caerthe] - (Badge): "Badge is displayed in Trian. Is that legal?"
[Caer Galen] - (Badge): "This is still drawn in trian aspect."
ACTION: pended for a redraw.
[al-Jamal] - (Name): "The legal name allowance is not all-encompassing. RfS II.4. states that: "Elements of the submitter's legal name may be used as the corresponding part of a Society name, if such elements are not excessively obtrusive and do not violate other sections of these rules." As *Avalon* is a somewhat mythical placename, well-known from its association with the Arthurian legends, I believe that its presence is "excessively obtrusive" here."
[Green Anchor] - (Name): "Sigh! The mundane name allowance only goes so far. This isn’t quite as jarring as “Moon Unit”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is returned by Laurel. What next, “Cloud-cuckoo-land Schmidt” or “Jotunheim Olafsson”?"
[Aryanhwy] - (Name): "Avalon as a given name is intrusively modern to my ears. I would not want to see this registered."
ACTION: passed. Obtrusive modernity is not something for me to call.
[Aryanhwy] - (Badge): "No conflicts found. I also didn't see anything like this registered to the Outlands, so I'm not sure what resemblance you're worried about."
[cnut] - (Badge): "Clear."
ACTION: passed and combined with item 9.
[al-Jamal] - (Device): "While it wouldn't hurt for the waves of the bordure to be a little larger, I think that their number and amplitude are within the range of acceptability."
[Green Anchor] - (Device): "The wavy line, while not so deep as on period heraldry, doesn’t seem so shallow to me as to cause its return."
[Aryanhwy] - (Device): "The wavy on the bordure doesn't look problematic to me; it's certainly within the bounds of what's been registered recently."
[cnut] - (Device): "The number of waves on the sides don't match. Clear, redraw."
[Caerthe] - (Device): "The consensus of the group is that, barring any conflict, the device should be sent to Wreath as is. The group felt that Wreath should be the one to return for a redraw if one is needed."
[Caer Galen] - (Device): "Gough-Parker's "Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry"(1966) pg. 595 'Undy' uses either the term wavy or undy with no reference to ripply. We believe wavy to be a more period term."
[Aryanhwy] - (Name): "This spelling of the given name is quite rare, but given the citation it's registerable. (Katrijn or Katriin would be much better choices.) van Deventer is not in my list of surnames from 1422-1534; I can't help with it."
[Caerthe] - (Name): "The name appears to be a nice Dutch name. Two comments though: 1) I believe that Dutch names are build simular to German and if that is true then the "V" in "Van" should be lower case as in - Katrine van Deventer; 2) After doing some further research on the sirname, m'lady Mor found a website showing the city of Deventer as a well established city in 1649 per "Dutch City Maps from Blaeu Atlas 1649-1652". The URL is odur.let.rug.nl/~welling/maps/blaeu.html. Though the source was barely period from what the group could determine, the city would have had to be building at least 50 years prior to the date of the map in order for the city to be as developed as it appeared."
[Caer Galen] - (Name): "Support: Bahlow's "Dictionary of German Names" (1993) pg.83 'Deventer' states: "Deventer-pl.n. in the Netherlands (Daventre 'boggy place', 772)"
ACTION: passed as Katrine van Deventer, based on commentary.
[Green Anchor] - (Name): "I’m not so sure that the genitive of the father’s name is correctly formed, but the client has given permission for that to be corrected if necessary by someone who actually knows."
[Caerthe] - (Name): "We find no conflict with the name. "
[al-Jamal] - (Device): "Conflict with Oleg Ivonovich (9704M), *Per pale sable and vert, a bear rampant contourny argent*. There is but a single CD, for the changes to the field."
[Green Anchor] - (Device): "The bear is not in a classic rampant posture, looking more like a boxer’s or wrestler’s crouch. It should be acceptable, however. "
[cnut] - (Device): "Bjornsborg, Barony of - January of 1992 (via Ansteorra): (Fieldless) A bear statant erect reguardant contourny supporting a berdiche argent. CD fieldless, probable CD berdiche (maintained/sustained). Oleg Ivonovich - April of 1997 (via the Middle): Per pale sable and vert, a bear rampant contourny argent. Máirín ben Dhiarmait - September of 1997 (via Caid): Purpure, a bear rampant contourney argent. Single CDs for field. Return for multiple conflicts."
[Caerthe] - (Device): "We do, however, find a possible conflict with the device - Oleg Ivanovich, April 1997 (Middle), Per pale sable and vert a bear rampant contourny argent. We will let others make the decision if there are enough CDs to clear this device."
ACTION: name passed. device returned for conflict.
[Aryanhwy] - (Name): "Scots/English combinations were ruled a weirdness on the 09/01 LoAR."
[Margaret] - (Name): "Here is a Margaret from Black, 1996 edition, p.311, under surname GLASENWRIGHT - ' Margaret Glassinwrecht..1576..'".
[Caerthe] - (Name): "We were unable to authenticate this name as it is unknown which culture the client wants. "
[Caer Galen] - (Name): "Mixing English and Scots is considered a weirdness, but is not unregisterable. "
[al-Jamal] - (Badge): "This badge needed to be listed but once in the ILoP, under "Gonter van Kortrike and Regana van Kortrijk.""
[Aryanhwy] - (Badge): "This submission should be listed on the LoI only once; since it's listed under #4, that's sufficient."
ACTION: passed and combined with item 4.
[Aryanhwy] - (Device): "Conflict with Florence, City of, (reg. 06/95 via Caid), "Argent, a fleur-de-lys gules," with one CD for the field, and also with Stefan de Lorraine, (08/79), "Argent, a fleur-de-lys gules." In Re to earlier comments: "I retract my conflict calls for 10 - Rothin in flamska. Here are the relevant precedents: [fleurs-de-lys vs calla lillies] While it is clear fleurs-de-lys evolved from lilies, the majority of the evidence points to them as being considered difference charge in period. Therefore, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt, and giving a CD between the calla lilies and the fleurs-de-lys. (Alina Silverthorne, 11/97 p. 3) [One commenter] has shown there was apparently a difference noted by heralds in period between the stylized fleur-de-lys and the natural lily flower since the arms of Eton College contain both used in a cadency context. Under the new rules this is enough to determine that a difference of type may be granted, assuming no real possibility of confusion. (LoAR 17 Jun 90, p. 4)."
[cnut] - (Device): "Clear, including other types of flower. In Re Aryanhwy: [fleurs-de-lys vs calla lillies] While it is clear fleurs-de-lys evolved from lilies, the majority of the evidence points to them as being considered difference charge in period. Therefore, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt, and giving a CD between the calla lilies and the fleurs-de-lys. (Alina Silverthorne, 11/97 p. 3). Precedents - Jaelle, under Fleur-de-Lys. Florence, City of, (reg. 06/95 via Caid), "Argent, a fleur-de-lys gules". Stefan de Lorraine, (08/79), "Argent, a fleur-de-lys gules". CDs for field, CDs for FdL vs lily, clear."
[Caer Galen] - (Device): "The lily looks like it's drawn in trian aspect and should be redrawn to more closely resemble the heraldic depiction. PD2.470"
ACTION: passed. It looks pretty close to the heraldic depiction in the PicDic to me.
[Green Anchor] - (Name): "The client wants an authentic 14th C. English name, so he’s submitting an Anglicized Irish given name and a Latinized Welsh toponymic? I don’t see how that can be accomplished without major changes. Perhaps this should be pended till it can be determined what the client really wants."
[Aryanhwy] - (Name): "Welsh/Gaelic combinations were ruled unregisterable on the 08/01 LoAR. I believe this will hold for anglicized Gaelic/Welsh combinations as well. He should be aware that documented one element of the name from a Gaelic source and one from a Welsh source will not give him an English name."
[Caerthe] - (Name): "It was felt that there was not enough documentation given to support the name "Ryan" (Irish) use in 14th century England. Though both parts of the name appear to be within period we were unable to authenticate for the requested time and language/culture. "
[cnut] - (Device): "Clear."
ACTION: both passed. Client advised that this may be returned for weirdness, but was willing to take the chance.