This letter has not yet officially been written. As I receive commentary on the November LoP, I will add it to this website.

Last Updated November 27, 2002


Outlands College of Heralds
From the office of the Rampart Herald
Pendar the Bard - 10 Magnifico - Los Lunas, NM 87031 - (505) 866-4369
musimon@zcloud.net
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November 2002 Letter of Presentation
January 2003 Letter of Intent
May 2003 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.

Letters of comment were received from Da'ud ibn Auda, al-Jamal Herald; Gawain of Miskbridge, Green Anchor Herald; Aryanhwy merch Catmael; cnut; Margaret Hepburn of Ardrossan; the Caerthe commenting group, Lady Sorcha (Aspen Pursuivant), Lady Katrein, mi'lady Mor, Lord Hakon, and mi'lady Mabbina; and the Caer Galen commenting group, Regana van Kortrijk and Jeanne-Marie Dubois.

  1. Artorius Greyhawk. Device resubmission (K). Sable, a hooded hawk's head argent and on a chief azure three pheons Or.

  2. Fontaine dans Sable, Shire of His name was registered in September of 2000 via the Outlands. His previous device submission, Azure, a hooded hawk’s head argent, on a chief sable fimbriated with a bar lace, three elf-bolts issuant from the bar lace Or. was returned from kingdom in July 2002 for multiple problems, see http://www.wombatinfestation.org/rampart/rampart/may02lop/lor0702.html. This new device will be returned because the hawk's head is not identifiable as such with such an odd bag-like hood on it and the blue chief has insufficient contrast with the black field.


    [al-Jamal] - (Device): "The chief is, as noted in the ILoP, color on color. RfS VII.7.a. requires that "Elements must be recognizable solely from their appearance." The hooded hawk's head is problematical. It looks like an inverted bag of some kind with a hook or spur issuing to dexter. In discussing the reasons for returning a harp issuing from a harp bag, Laurel noted: "The collocation of charges is ... not clearly identifiable at a distance.... The theory that a scabbard or a quiver derive their identifiability from the items contained does not seem to be supported by the evidence.... The design depends on a specific form of harp bag, which is not reconstructible from the blazon.... Many forms of harp bag or case are possible, but the design depends on using this particular form. Unlike the quiver or the scabbard, the identifiability of this charge depends on the clear identification of the harp which is seriously diminished by its fesswise posture and the fact that a considerable part of the visible wooden harp, which is brown, lies on the vert lining." (Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane, LoAR 21 February 1988, p. 13) With the submission at hand, we do not even have the advantage of a specific shape to the bag."
    [Green Anchor] - (Device): "Agree with your reservations on this. The pheons are inverted."
    [cnut] - (Device): "Hooded is an attribute of a whole hawk, but that doesn't mean that it is acceptable for just the head. This is unidentifiable."

    [Caerthe] - (Device): "We would agree with Ramparts decision to return this device for the same reasons given. There was also a recommendation from Lord Hakon for the client to look up "Falconry" by Emma Ford for a more accurate picture of a hooded hawk. "
    [Caer Galen] - (Device): "The points on the pheons should be blazoned 'to chief' as the SCA default is to base. PD2.562"

    ACTION: returned for identifiability issues and for low contrast between the field and the chief.

  3. Artorius Greyhawk. Badge resubmission (K). (Fieldless) A hawk's leg palewise sustaining by its blade a sword fesswise proper.

  4. Fontaine dans Sable, Shire of His name was registered in September of 2000 via the Outlands. His previous badge submission, (Fieldless) A hawk’s leg palewise proper sustaining by its blade a sword fesswise proper. was returned from kingdom in July 2002 for being in trian aspect and using brown strapping and a grey blade, as well as couping the sword in an unblazonable manner.


    [al-Jamal] - (Badge): "The hawk's leg is "palewise" by default."
    [Green Anchor] - (Badge): "He hasn’t yet gotten the concept of trian aspect. The sword still needs to be redrawn in a non-perspective manner."
    [cnut] - (Badge): "(Fieldless) A brown hawk's leg palewise sustaining by its blade a sword fesswise proper. This looks trian aspect to me, violating RfS VIII.1.c.i. Clear - redraw."
    [Caerthe] - (Badge): "Badge is displayed in Trian. Is that legal?"
    [Caer Galen] - (Badge): "This is still drawn in trian aspect."

    ACTION: pended for a redraw.

  5. Avalon Dubois. Name resubmission (k).

  6. Caer Galen, Shire of Her previous name submission, Fey Dubois was returned from kingdom in September 2002 for lack of documentation for the use of "Fey" as a given name in period. "Avalon" is her legal given name. A copy of her birth certificate was provided. "Dubois" is in Reaney & Wilson, page 143. s.n. Dubois, and in Dauzat, page 214, s.n. Dubois. She will not accept major changes, cares most about the sound, and the desired gender is female.


    [al-Jamal] - (Name): "The legal name allowance is not all-encompassing. RfS II.4. states that: "Elements of the submitter's legal name may be used as the corresponding part of a Society name, if such elements are not excessively obtrusive and do not violate other sections of these rules." As *Avalon* is a somewhat mythical placename, well-known from its association with the Arthurian legends, I believe that its presence is "excessively obtrusive" here."
    [Green Anchor] - (Name): "Sigh! The mundane name allowance only goes so far. This isn’t quite as jarring as “Moon Unit”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is returned by Laurel. What next, “Cloud-cuckoo-land Schmidt” or “Jotunheim Olafsson”?"
    [Aryanhwy] - (Name): "Avalon as a given name is intrusively modern to my ears. I would not want to see this registered."

    ACTION: passed. Obtrusive modernity is not something for me to call.

  7. Gonter van Kortrike. New Badge. Vert, a fleur-de-lys argent and a bordure embattled Or.

  8. Caer Galen, Shire of His name was registered in July of 2001 via the Outlands. This badge is to be jointly owned with Regana van Kortrijk. Though it resembles many of the awards registered to the Kingdom of the Outlands, that is not a bar to registration.


    [Aryanhwy] - (Badge): "No conflicts found. I also didn't see anything like this registered to the Outlands, so I'm not sure what resemblance you're worried about."
    [cnut] - (Badge): "Clear."

    ACTION: passed and combined with item 9.

  9. Hákon Refr. Device resubmission (K). Or, a fox courant to sinister gules and a bordure wavy sable.

  10. Caerthe, Barony of His name is currently in submission on the October 2002 Letter of Intent. It will be registered or returned in February 2003. This is his third device attempt. His first submission, Gules, a fox salient Or. was returned from kingdom in October 2002 for conflict with Lucas d'Avignon - February of 2002 (via ): Gules, a fox salient within an orle of fleurs-de-lys Or. His second attempt, Gules, a fox salient contourny Or. was returned from kingdom in November 2002 for conflict with Anne de Junius - March of 1989 (via Atenveldt): Gules, a fox sejant to sinister grasping in its teeth the lower end of the bag of a bagpipe Or. And for conflict with Connor MacTavish - November of 1992 (via the Middle): Lozengy azure and argent, a wolf rampant contourny queue-fourchy Or. The complex line on the bordure is commonly referred to in the CoA as "ripply" and has been a cause for return in the past. Should I send it forward as it is and hope that Wreath simply instructs the submitter to draw the waves bolder, or should I pend it for a redraw at kingdom? Are there any other problems?


    [al-Jamal] - (Device): "While it wouldn't hurt for the waves of the bordure to be a little larger, I think that their number and amplitude are within the range of acceptability."
    [Green Anchor] - (Device): "The wavy line, while not so deep as on period heraldry, doesn’t seem so shallow to me as to cause its return."
    [Aryanhwy] - (Device): "The wavy on the bordure doesn't look problematic to me; it's certainly within the bounds of what's been registered recently."
    [cnut] - (Device): "The number of waves on the sides don't match. Clear, redraw."
    [Caerthe] - (Device): "The consensus of the group is that, barring any conflict, the device should be sent to Wreath as is. The group felt that Wreath should be the one to return for a redraw if one is needed."
    [Caer Galen] - (Device): "Gough-Parker's "Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry"(1966) pg. 595 'Undy' uses either the term wavy or undy with no reference to ripply. We believe wavy to be a more period term."

    ACTION: passed.

  11. Katrine Van Deventer. New Name.

  12. al-Barran, Barony of "Katrine" is found on a list of Dutch Names 1393-96 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Friedemann) (http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann/names/dutch14.htm). The client then provided a list of references used by people who have done research on the van Deventer family line, but did not provide photocopies from any of them, so I see no sense in repeating the list here. The researchers are Patrick (Van Deventer) Johnston (patjohnston@earthlink.net and sarah@vandeventer.net An e-mail from Patrick Johnston notes that the oldest Van Deventer historical account is of Gerlach Pietersz van Deventer, ca. late 1300's. He also notes a Jacob Van Deventer, ca. 1505, a highly regarded cartographer who was retained by the king of Spain and the Netherlands to chart/map the old low country region. But without photocopies of the primary sources, this e-mail amounts to hearsay and is not admissable as documentation. Does anybody have anything more useful? The client will not accept major changes, the desired gender is female, and she is interested in having her name be authentic for "Dutch/Netherlands" language and/or culture.


    [Aryanhwy] - (Name): "This spelling of the given name is quite rare, but given the citation it's registerable. (Katrijn or Katriin would be much better choices.) van Deventer is not in my list of surnames from 1422-1534; I can't help with it."
    [Caerthe] - (Name): "The name appears to be a nice Dutch name. Two comments though: 1) I believe that Dutch names are build simular to German and if that is true then the "V" in "Van" should be lower case as in - Katrine van Deventer; 2) After doing some further research on the sirname, m'lady Mor found a website showing the city of Deventer as a well established city in 1649 per "Dutch City Maps from Blaeu Atlas 1649-1652". The URL is odur.let.rug.nl/~welling/maps/blaeu.html. Though the source was barely period from what the group could determine, the city would have had to be building at least 50 years prior to the date of the map in order for the city to be as developed as it appeared."
    [Caer Galen] - (Name): "Support: Bahlow's "Dictionary of German Names" (1993) pg.83 'Deventer' states: "Deventer-pl.n. in the Netherlands (Daventre 'boggy place', 772)"

    ACTION: passed as Katrine van Deventer, based on commentary.

  13. Leif Vagnsson. New Name and device. Quarterly gules and azure, a bear rampant to sinister argent.

  14. Caer Galen, Shire of Both elements are documented from Geirr Bassi. "Leif" from "Leifr", page 13. "Vagn" page 15. "Vagnsson" from the formation of patronymics page 17. St. Gabriel report #1739 is referenced. He will not accept major changes, cares most about the language/culture, the desired gender is male, and he is interested in having his name be authentic for "Norse" language and/or culture.


    [Green Anchor] - (Name): "I’m not so sure that the genitive of the father’s name is correctly formed, but the client has given permission for that to be corrected if necessary by someone who actually knows."
    [Caerthe] - (Name): "We find no conflict with the name. "
    [al-Jamal] - (Device): "Conflict with Oleg Ivonovich (9704M), *Per pale sable and vert, a bear rampant contourny argent*. There is but a single CD, for the changes to the field."
    [Green Anchor] - (Device): "The bear is not in a classic rampant posture, looking more like a boxer’s or wrestler’s crouch. It should be acceptable, however. "
    [cnut] - (Device): "Bjornsborg, Barony of - January of 1992 (via Ansteorra): (Fieldless) A bear statant erect reguardant contourny supporting a berdiche argent. CD fieldless, probable CD berdiche (maintained/sustained). Oleg Ivonovich - April of 1997 (via the Middle): Per pale sable and vert, a bear rampant contourny argent. Máirín ben Dhiarmait - September of 1997 (via Caid): Purpure, a bear rampant contourney argent. Single CDs for field. Return for multiple conflicts."
    [Caerthe] - (Device): "We do, however, find a possible conflict with the device - Oleg Ivanovich, April 1997 (Middle), Per pale sable and vert a bear rampant contourny argent. We will let others make the decision if there are enough CDs to clear this device."

    ACTION: name passed. device returned for conflict.

  15. Margaret Colquhoun. New Name.

  16. al-Barran, Barony of "Margaret" is found in Withycombe, page 206, dated to 1093. "Colquhoun" is found in Black, page 163, dated to 1241. The combination of English and Scots would seem unusual but for the fact that Scotland had a queen named Margaret called the "Maid of Norway" who ruled 1286-1290. There is a possibility that some Scots may have named their daughters after her in memorium. (She died on the way to Scotland). The client will not accept major changes, cares most about the language/culture, the desired gender is female, and she is interested in having her name authentic for 13th century time period.


    [Aryanhwy] - (Name): "Scots/English combinations were ruled a weirdness on the 09/01 LoAR."
    [Margaret] - (Name): "Here is a Margaret from Black, 1996 edition, p.311, under surname GLASENWRIGHT - ' Margaret Glassinwrecht..1576..'".
    [Caerthe] - (Name): "We were unable to authenticate this name as it is unknown which culture the client wants. "
    [Caer Galen] - (Name): "Mixing English and Scots is considered a weirdness, but is not unregisterable. "

    ACTION: passed.

  17. Regana van Kortrijk. New Badge. Vert, a fleur-de-lys argent and a bordure embattled Or.

  18. Caer Galen, Shire of Her name was registered in July of 2001 via the Outlands. This badge is to be jointly owned with Gonter van Kortrike. Though it resembles many of the awards registered to the Kingdom of the Outlands, that is not a bar to registration.


    [al-Jamal] - (Badge): "This badge needed to be listed but once in the ILoP, under "Gonter van Kortrike and Regana van Kortrijk.""
    [Aryanhwy] - (Badge): "This submission should be listed on the LoI only once; since it's listed under #4, that's sufficient."

    ACTION: passed and combined with item 4.

  19. Rothin in flamska. Device resubmission (L). Or, a lily gules.

  20. Caerthe, Barony of Her name was registered in February 2002 via the Outlands. Her previous device submission, Argent, a chevron fracted counter-ermine in chief a gendy flower gules. was returned by Laurel in February 2002 for use of a gendy flower, which has been a prohibited charge since November 1999.


    [Aryanhwy] - (Device): "Conflict with Florence, City of, (reg. 06/95 via Caid), "Argent, a fleur-de-lys gules," with one CD for the field, and also with Stefan de Lorraine, (08/79), "Argent, a fleur-de-lys gules." In Re to earlier comments: "I retract my conflict calls for 10 - Rothin in flamska. Here are the relevant precedents: [fleurs-de-lys vs calla lillies] While it is clear fleurs-de-lys evolved from lilies, the majority of the evidence points to them as being considered difference charge in period. Therefore, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt, and giving a CD between the calla lilies and the fleurs-de-lys. (Alina Silverthorne, 11/97 p. 3) [One commenter] has shown there was apparently a difference noted by heralds in period between the stylized fleur-de-lys and the natural lily flower since the arms of Eton College contain both used in a cadency context. Under the new rules this is enough to determine that a difference of type may be granted, assuming no real possibility of confusion. (LoAR 17 Jun 90, p. 4)."
    [cnut] - (Device): "Clear, including other types of flower. In Re Aryanhwy: [fleurs-de-lys vs calla lillies] While it is clear fleurs-de-lys evolved from lilies, the majority of the evidence points to them as being considered difference charge in period. Therefore, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt, and giving a CD between the calla lilies and the fleurs-de-lys. (Alina Silverthorne, 11/97 p. 3). Precedents - Jaelle, under Fleur-de-Lys. Florence, City of, (reg. 06/95 via Caid), "Argent, a fleur-de-lys gules". Stefan de Lorraine, (08/79), "Argent, a fleur-de-lys gules". CDs for field, CDs for FdL vs lily, clear."
    [Caer Galen] - (Device): "The lily looks like it's drawn in trian aspect and should be redrawn to more closely resemble the heraldic depiction. PD2.470"

    ACTION: passed. It looks pretty close to the heraldic depiction in the PicDic to me.

  21. Ryan De Caergybi. New Name and device. Per pale argent and gules, a griffin within six feathers in annulo counterchanged.

  22. al-Barran, Barony of "Ryan" is the anglicized version of the Gaelic name "Rian" as found in Wolfe, Irish Names and Surnames page 631 under the heading O'Riagain and in O'C&M, page 155, under the heading Rian. The "De Caergybi" form can be found in Names and Naming Practices in the Anglesey Submissions of 1406 by Heather Rose Jones in Y Camamseriad 4, 1996. He will not accept major changes, cares most about the meaning (Ryan from Caergybi), the desired gender is male, and he is interesting in having his name be authentic for "14th century English" language and/or culture.


    [Green Anchor] - (Name): "The client wants an authentic 14th C. English name, so he’s submitting an Anglicized Irish given name and a Latinized Welsh toponymic? I don’t see how that can be accomplished without major changes. Perhaps this should be pended till it can be determined what the client really wants."
    [Aryanhwy] - (Name): "Welsh/Gaelic combinations were ruled unregisterable on the 08/01 LoAR. I believe this will hold for anglicized Gaelic/Welsh combinations as well. He should be aware that documented one element of the name from a Gaelic source and one from a Welsh source will not give him an English name."
    [Caerthe] - (Name): "It was felt that there was not enough documentation given to support the name "Ryan" (Irish) use in 14th century England. Though both parts of the name appear to be within period we were unable to authenticate for the requested time and language/culture. "
    [cnut] - (Device): "Clear."

    ACTION: both passed. Client advised that this may be returned for weirdness, but was willing to take the chance.

    Line Emblazon Sheet
    Color Emblazon Sheet

November 2002 Letter of Presentation
January 2003 Letter of Intent
May 2003 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.