Outlands College of Heralds
From the office of the Rampart Herald
Pendar the Bard - 10 Magnifico - Los Lunas, NM 87031 - (505) 866-4369
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Color Emblazon Sheet

August 2002 Letter of Presentation
October 2002 Letter of Intent
February 2003 LoAR Results
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Letters of comment were received from Shayk Da'ud ibn Auda, al-Jamal Herald; Athenais Bryennissa, Black Pillar Pursuivant; Gawain of Miskbridge, Green Anchor Herald; Jeanne Marie Lacroix, Sommelier Pursuivant; Aryanhwy merch Catmael, Herald-at-Large; and knut

  1. Aziza al-Kashani. New Badge. (Fieldless) A double rose Or charged with a horse passant sable.

  2. al-Barran, Barony of Her name was registered in November of 1989 via the Outlands.
    [Sommelier] - (General): "The name was reigstered 11/89."
    [al-Jamal] - (Badge): "My only real concern is not that this might be considered four layers (fieldless, rose, rose, horse), but that the internal detailing of the double rose combined with the complexity of the animate charge will make identifiability a problem. This would be much less of a difficulty were the primary charge simply *a rose*, instead of a double rose."
    [Aryanhwy] - (Badge): "I'm concerned about the identifiability of the double rose underneath the horse."
    [knut] - (Badge): "I am inclined to treat an otherwise uncharged double rose as an organic charge, and therefore a single layer. [BoE, 16 Dec 84, p.4] Precedents - Baldwin; under Rose. Juliana dei Rossi - November of 2001 (via the West): Azure, a wolf sejant ululant and on a chief Or three double roses proper. The double rose is by precedent and recent registration a single layer. As for the identifiability concerns, although this might not be immediately identifiable as a horse on a double rose, it is definately a horse on a rose. The double rose is treated as a blazonable artistic variant of a rose and would trigger a "sword and dagger" return if they were mixed in the same armoury. We don't particulary care about the identifiability of a specific type of sword as long as it is obviously a sword and the blazon matches the emblazon. Should we treat roses differently? Clear."

    ACTION: Badge Passed.

  3. Brigit Kelly. New Name and Device. Or, a fillet cross sable interlaced with a cross parted and fretted all between four aspen leaves points to center vert.

  4. al-Barran, Barony of "Brigit" is found in Withycombe, page 17, under the heading Bridget, where it is listed as the "old Irish" form of the name. "Kelly" is found in Woulfe, Irish Names and Surnames under MacCeallaig. This is the standard modern form. She will accept changes and gave no indication that she wanted the name to be authentic.
    [Black Pillar] - (Name): "C&M (pp. 36-37, s.n. "Brigit") says, "The name Brigit did not come into common use in Ireland until the modern period but as Mel Brigte >devotee of St Brigit= and Gilla Brigte >servant of St Brigit= it was much used in the medieval period." Fortunately, they also say "Ecclesiastical sources tell us that there were fifteen saints of the name Brigit." That makes the name registerable.So, in summary, given names which can be documented as the given name of a saint may be registered as a given name. The use of a name documented as a saint's name carries no weirdness in and of itself. The only weirdnesses that derive from using that name come from the lingual mix of the submitted form of the saint's name with the rest of the submitted name. [09/01, CL] For the surname, MacLysaght doesn't offer much more information. Under "(Mac) Kelly" (p. 175), it says "A minor sept of east Connacht; now that the prefixes Mac and O have been so widely dropped from these names, it is indistinguishable from O'Kelly." Under "(O) Kelly" on the same page, it gives - Ceallaigh- as the Gaelic form and says "The most important and numerous sept of this name is that of the U Maine. There are several other septs as indicated in Map. Kelly is the second most numerous name in Ireland." Since the submitter made no request for authenticity, the name should be registerable as is."
    [Green Anchor] - (Name): "The given name is also found in O'C&M, p.36, where it is said to be the name of several early saints. They go on to say that it was not commonly used in Ireland until "the modern period", but that the circumlocutions "Mel Brigte" and "Gilla Brigte" "were much used in the medieval period.""
    [Sommelier] - (Name): "This is clear of Brigit Kelly MacLean (11/90) by the removal of a name element."
    [Aryanhwy] - (Name): "This combines an early-period Gaelic given name with a modern anglicized surname. There is one weirdness for the combination of Gaelic and anglicized elements, and another for temporal disparity. Another problem arises in that , being the name of a very prominent goddess, was almost *never* used as a given name by real people in period, except in the compound form "devotee of Brigit", which can be found in OCM s.n. Brigit. However, there is an easy fix: the name was adopted into English late in period. Some forms that would be appropriate with the surname are as follows: "16th Century Gloucestershire Names" (~http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann/names/late16.htm) 1573, 1590, 1596; 1593; 1590. "Names found in Frocester, Glouchestershire Marriage Registers 1559-1600" (~http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann/names/frocester.htm) 1593 (this is a Latin form). "16th Century Names from Ormskirk Parish Registers" (~http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann/names/ormskirk.htm) 1581, 1585; 1589. Woulfe is not generally the best source to use for Gaelic names; MacLysaght, OCM, and Black are must more reliable. However, Woulfe is a suitable source when dealing with surnames, for which he often gives dates. Unfortunately, this is not the case with this one; there is no evidence that is a period anglicization. Reaney & Wilson have a dated to 1601 s.n. Kelly, from the Gaelic surname; there is also a locative dated to 1194 and 1373. Considering all this, I would make the name , a fine late-period English name."
    [al-Jamal] - (Device): "This sort of double-tincturing of the primary charge and rotational symmetry of the secondary charges is about as far from period style heraldry as one can get and still remain (probably) registrable. It would be ever so much better had she chosen a singly-tinctured *cross triply parted and fretted* and if the leaves were all in their default *palewise* posture. The overall design is very modern, but is probably not so egregiously modern as to make it unregistrable."
    [Black Pillar] - (Device): "The device seems like an attempt at the long-forbidden style of Celtic knotwork. It's a shame she didn't go with with a a cross triply parted and fretted of one colour. I'd imagine that there's a weirdness for using two colours in it, but lacking any further evidence, it should be sent up for Wreath to decide. No conflicts found."
    [knut] - (Device): "Or, a cross triply parted and fretted the center cross sable between four aspen leaves points to center vert. The detailing shows that the primary charge is a cross triply parted and fretted, preventing a return for the banned fillet cross. Clear."

    ACTION: Name Passed. Device Passed.

  5. Chendra Rudd ferch Arianwen. New Badge. (Fieldless) Two lions rampant addorsed tails intertwined gules and Or.

  6. Caer Galen, Shire of Her name was registered in July of 1989 via Calontir.
    [Sommelier] - (General): "Her name was registered 07/89."
    [al-Jamal] - (Badge): "The submitted blazon really doesn't tell us how the lions are tinctured, making reproduction of the badge from the blazon extremely difficult. Perhaps *[In fess] a lion rampant gules and a lion rampant contourny Or, tails intertwined*?"
    [Black Pillar] - (Badge): "This would be better as A lion gules and a lion Or addorsed tails intertwined or Two lions addorsed tails intertwined, the dexter gules and the sinister Or. Since rampant is the default posture for lions, it may be dropped from the blazon. No conflicts found."
    [knut] - (Badge): "(Fieldless) A lion gules addorsed to and tail intertwined with one Or. Rampant is the default posture of a lion. Clear."

    ACTION: Badge Passed.

  7. Citadel of the Southern Pass, Barony of the Order name Resubmission (L) for the Order of Poitiers.

  8. This order name is intended to replace the Order of the Archers of Agincourt which was sent to Laurel on the May 2002 Special Letter of Intent. Laurel will rule on it officially in September. This resub will pass kingdom in October. I will be asking the Laurel team for early notice regarding the Agincourt order name so that this name can be sent up in a timely manner if it passes Kingdom. I am assuming, for now, that the Agincourt order name will be returned based on commentary I have received so far and my own doubts regarding the name.
    [al-Jamal] - (Order Name): "The submitted name will conflict (per RfS V.2.a.) with the city of Poitiers, France, "city (1990 pop. 82,507), capital of Vienne dept., W central France, on the Clain River." It has its own entry at www.encyclopedia.com and in the Columbia Encyclopedia. The sole difference is the designator (Order), which is not sufficient."
    [Black Pillar] - (Order Name): "I'd expect this name to have the same problems of presumption and/or conflict with the name of a famous place that their current attempt, the Order of the Archers of Agincourt has. I see no reason why this order name is any more acceptable. Further, no documentation is actually given in the LoP as to why this is a reasonably constructed order name, or that Poitiers was actually called that in period. (Not that I particularly doubt that it was, but were this an LoI, the order name would be returnable for that alone.)"
    [Sommelier] - (Order Name): "No documentation was supplied for the name."
    [Aryanhwy] - (Order Name): "I see no documentation for this order name on the LoI, nor can I supply any. If none can be found, this should be returned. The Barony's name was registered 02/84 via Atenveldt."

    ACTION: Order Name Returned for conflict with the city of Poitiers, France.

  9. Hkon Refr. New Name and Device. Gules, a fox salient Or.

  10. Caerthe, Barony of Both elements are documented from Geirr Bassi. "Hkon" is found on page 11 as a masculine given name. "Refr" is found on page 26 as a nickname meaning "fox". He will not accept major changes, cares most about the language/culture, the desired gender is male, and he is interested in having his name be made authentic for "Norse/Viking" language and/or culture. He will not allow the creation of a holding name.
    [Black Pillar] - (Name): "I don't have Geirr Bassi handy to check, but if the byname was found there, it was probably listed as refr."
    [Sommelier] - (Name): "Whether or not the byname should be capitalized depends on Pelican's October decision."
    [Aryanhwy] - (Name): "The byname is actually found in Geirr Bassi as , and currently Pelican is registering Norse bynames non-capitalized. However, there is currently a call for commentary on this issue, so I'm not sure if you should worry about changing it in kingdom. By the time this reaches external, hopefully a ruling will be made."
    [al-Jamal] - (Device): "Conflict with Lucas d'Avignon (February 2002), *Gules, a fox salient within an orle of fleurs-de-lys Or*. There is only one CD, for the removal of the orle."
    [Sommelier] - (Device): "Possible conflict with Ana Moonstar (08/79), "Azure, a wolf rampant reguardant Or, maintaining in its teeth a mullet of eight points argent, standing upon a moon in her plentitude per pale argent and sable." There's a CD for changes to the field but nothing for the mullet. There may or may not be a CD for the moon, depending on its size. Conflict with Lucas d'Avignon 02/02, "Gules, a fox salient within an orle of fleurs-de-lys Or" with a single CD for removing the fleurs-de-lys."
    [Aryanhwy] - (Device): "Unfortunately, this conflicts with Lucas d'Avignon, (reg. 02/02), "Gules, a fox salient within an orle of fleurs-de-lys Or." There is one CD for the fleurs-de-lys."
    [knut] - (Device): "Lucas d'Avignon - February of 2002 (via ): Gules, a fox salient within an orle of fleurs-de-lys Or. CD for secondary fleurs - conflict Anne de Junius - March of 1989 (via Atenveldt): Gules, a fox sejant to sinister grasping in its teeth the lower end of the bag of a bagpipe Or. CD for posture, possible CD for bagpipe. Return for conflict."

    ACTION: Name Passed. Device Returned for conflict with Lucas d'Avignon cited above.

  11. James MacLeister. New Name.

  12. Caerthe, Barony of (notes from Aspen): James is in Withycombe, 3rd Ed. p. 171, header James, dated to 1240 in this form. Withycombe also says, "The acession of James Stuart to the English throne in 1603 marks the beginning of the period in which it became a common English name." MacLeister is a header in Black, Surnames of Scotland, p. 537. It dates McInleister to 1613 as a surname. Client will not accept major changes, cares most about the language/culture, desires the gender to be male, and wishes his name to be authentic for 15-16th C "Scottish" time period, language and/or culture. It was explained to the client that indicating this desire may prevent the desired spelling of the surname, as it is not dated in Black. Client indicates that he will accept McInleister if he cannot get MacLeister.
    [Green Anchor] - (Name): "He's documented the given name for English but not for either Scots or Gaelic. Given the desired period, I suspect that it was common enough in Scots as well. Is it possible to find out from the client which of the two major languages of Scotland he intends this to be?"

    ACTION: Name Passed.

  13. Thorgrim van de Kbenhavn. Device Resubmission (K). Per chevron sable and checky argent and sable, a chevron gules fimbriated Or and in chief a hanging balance argent.

  14. al-Barran, Barony of His name is currently in submission on the July 2002 Outlands internal Letter of Presentation. The device that went into submission on that same letter, "Per chevron sable and checky argent and sable, a chevron gules and in chief a hanging balance argent." will be returned in September for having a red chevron on a field that is 2/3 black, thus violating RfS VIII.2. The client was made aware of this and made changes that should make the device passable.
    [Black Pillar] - (Device): "No conflicts found."
    [Green Anchor] - (Device): "This change certainly answers the reason for the previous return."
    [knut] - (Device): "Clear."

    ACTION: Device Passed.

Line Emblazon Sheet
Color Emblazon Sheet

August 2002 Letter of Presentation
October 2002 Letter of Intent
February 2003 LoAR Results
Return to the Rampart home page.