Outlands College of Heralds
From the office of the Rampart Herald
Pendar the Bard - 10 Magnifico - Los Lunas, NM 87031 - (505) 866-4369

UNTO Francois la Flamme, Laurel King of Arms, Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, Pelican Queen of Arms, Zenobia Naphtali, Armory Queen of Arms, and Daniel de Lincoln, Laurel clerk, upon this 20th day of May, A.S. XXXVII (2002 CE),

DOES The Honorable Lord Pendar the Bard, Rampart Herald, send


I have chosen to send this special Letter of Intent seperately as it was not written by me and I do not want credit for it. It is an appeal to the Laurel King of Arms which I hope will clarify the rules regarding Order names so that this does not happen again. This letter was written by Lady Dulcinea Margarita Teresa Velàzquez de Ribera, Trefoil Herald, on behalf of the Barony of the Citadel of the Southern Pass for their new Order name “The Order of the Archers of Agincourt”, which was returned by me at Kingdom in April of 2002 for conflict with the “Agincourt King of Arms.” After all, “Order of” and “Archers of” are both just designators. I have been arguing this subject with Dulcinea over e-mail for three months, even dragging Shayk Da’ud ibn Auda into it, and cannot get her to understand. I am certain she is not the only one who is having trouble understanding the SCA’s views on order names. It could be that I am mistaken in this matter. If so, I would like to know.

September 2002 LoAR Results
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  1. Citadel of the Southern Pass, Barony of. Order Name. The Order of the Archers of Agincourt.
  2. There is a badge on the April 17, Outlands LoI from Citadel, “Azure, between two piles inverted argent, a pheon Or.”, which should be attached to this order name should this order name get registered. Here follows the text of Dulcinea’s appeal to Laurel:
Battle of Agincourt History: This is a famous battle of the 100-year war fought on 10/25/1415 by Henry V of England against France in the town of Agincourt (modern day spelling is Azincourt). Agincourt was the 3rd greatest English Victory over the French in the 100-year war. The first being in Crecy in 1346 and the second in Poitiers in 1356. French records show 50,000 French soldiers up against 15,000 British. However, despite being badly outnumbered, exhausted from marching, underfed and ill, the British archers completely routed the French cavalry, turning the tide of battle and winning the day for the British who lost less than 200 men all told compared to 10,000 French casualties. These incredible Welsh archers armed with the traditional and historical longbow (measuring 70” in length with an average pull of 75 to 100 lbs with an accurate volley of 12 arrows per minute at ranges of up to 300 yards) were able to keep the French at a distance where they were unable to use their favored distance weapon, a crossbow with a range far shorter than the Welsh Longbow, and shattered forever the myth of the invincible armored night.

RFS III.2.b.iii “Names of Orders and Awards - Names of orders and awards must follow the patterns of the names of period orders and awards. These are often the names of saints; others are similar to sign names (see RfS III.2.a.iii). Some examples are: the Order of Saint Michael, the Order of Saint Maurice and Saint Lazarus , the Brethren of the Sword , the Order of the Garter , La Toison d’Or (the Order of the Golden Fleece ), the Order of the Golden Rose , the Order of the Star , the Order of the Swan , La Orden de la Jara (the Knights of the Tankard ), the Order of Lilies ." You will notice that in the RfS doesn't say "The ‘Order of the Tankard’ known as the ‘Knights of the Tankard’", it states very clearly: "Names of orders and awards must follow the patterns of the names of period orders and awards. These are often ..... Some examples are: ".... ‘the Bretheren of the Sword’, ... ‘The Knights of the Tankard’ ...". This exact quote is, therefore, approving the Order naming pattern “Order of X of X” which can be completed as “ of ” which is the same pattern as that submitted for “Archers of Agincourt”. The manner in which the examples are listed is written approval of "Knights of the Tankard" and "Brethren of the Sword" as period order names. In point of fact, the "Orden de la Jarra" is translated in the RfS as "Knights of the Tankard". A direct translation would be "The Order of the Tankard", so the RfS is saying that "Knights of the Tankard" is, in fact, an acceptable translation of "Orden de la Jarra" and, therefore, an acceptable period order name construction.

Period Order, Group, Sign Names: The period names shown below have been documented from a variety of books and articles on period order names which are duplicated or originated on the following internet sites: www.antiquesatoz.com/Orders www.medals.org www.farreaches.org/~tasha/heraldry/ordernames www.heraldica.org www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/3908/militaryorders www.chivalricorders.org

Period Order Names: "The Order of the Argonauts of St. Nicholas", Charles III 1382 "The Order of the Knights of St. George" formed by Constantine "The Order of the Hospitalers of St. John of Jerusalem" known as the “Knights of Malta” founded on similar principals as the Knights Templar in 1080 "The Order of the Swordbearers of Livonia" Albert, Bishop of Riga 1197, "The Order of the Knights of the Holy Sepulchre" 15th Century converted to an order of merit in 1868 "The Order of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem" 1200s "The Order of the Holy Spirit of Montpellier" 1200s "The Order of the Conception of Our Lady" Duke of Mantua 1614 "The Order of the Wing of St. Michael" King Alfonse I, 1176 ”The Order of Our Lady of Ransom" St. Peter Nolascus 1218 "The Order of St. Thomas of Canterbury" 1191 “The Military Order of Our Lady of Mercy" 1218 Also St. Peter Nolascus "The Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulcher of Jerusalem" 1099 "The Order of Our Lady of the Conception of Vila Vicosa" 1501 "The Order of the Corps of the Falcon" 1377, French Fraternal Order "The Order of the Alliance and Companie of Levrier" 1416 "The Order of the Knights of St. Catherine of Mount Sanai" in the12th century. All of these were originally registered/founded under the names shown and have similar to nearly identical construction as “Archers of Agincourt”. Most mention a trade or occupation of a person or group such as ‘Knights’, ‘Corps’, ‘Argonauts’, ‘Hospitalers’, ‘Swordbearers’, etcetera. Then gives them an attribute, location or specific place of origen such as ‘of Montpellier’, ‘of Livonia’, ‘of the Falcon’, and others. Others mention a person such as “St. Lazarus” or “Our Lady” and then provide a location or other attribute such as “of Jerusalem” or “of Mercy”. Yet others combine both such as “The Knights of St. Catherine of Mount Sanai.” Very specifically, “The Argonauts of St. Nicholas”, “The Swordbearers of Livonia”, The Hospitalers of St John of Jerusalem”, and “The Corps of the Falcon” are identical in pattern and construction to “The Archers of Agincourt”. Also, since the “Order of the Hospitalers of St. John of Jerusalem”, were known as the ‘Knights of Malta’, the construction pattern “ of ” which is identical to “Archers of Agincourt” dates back to at least 1080.There is also copious period precedence for order names coming from famous battles or other special events and subsequently being conferred upon those not actually participating in the battle or event. The list below is in alphabetical order by date

Note: All were preceeded by “The Order of The...”
Holy Phial 499 Star of the Noble House 1351
Dog and Cock 500 Annunciation 1355
Swan 500 St. Bridget 1366
Oak of Navarre 722 Bourbon 1370
Stocking 737 Dove 1379
Lion of France 1080 Passion of Jesus 1380
Holy Sepulcher 1099 Ear of Corn and Ermine 1381
Military Hospitalers 1099 Porcupine 1393
Knights of Malta 1107 Lily of Aragon 1410
Avis 1142 Dragon Overthrown 1418
Ladies of the Hatchet 1149 Reversed Dragon 1418
Alcantra 1156 Golden Fleece 1429
Wing of St. Michael 1172 Tower and the Sword 1459
White Elephant 1190 Tower & Sword 1459
Knights of the Holy Cross 1191 Crown of Love 1479
Garden of Olives 1197 Cordeliere 1498
Red Star 1217 Thistle 1500
Calatrava 1219 Sword of Sweden 1522
Spur of Naples 1266 Burgundian Cross 1535
Crescent 1268 Lily 1546
Double Crescent 1269 Saviour of the World 1561
Ship and Escallop Shell 1269 Lamb of God 1564
The Scale 1318 Yellow String 1606
Band 1330 Bath (Wm the Conquerer) 10th C.
Garter 1344 Silence or Cyprus 12th C.
Ordo Equestris Roman Empire

And let’s not forget the variety of Order names dealing with Mary, Jesus, Saints and the Holy Ghost (All preceded by “The Order of”): Our Lady of (Bethlehem, Grace, Loretto, Mercy, Rosary and many others) 1212-1587 St. (variety of Saints starting with St. George) 312-1562 Christ (variety of orders) 1206-1319 Holy Ghost (several) 1198-1578 Brothers of the Jubilation (more than one) 1200 to 1400

Period Sign and Guild Names: The RfS also state that Order names may be "... similar to sign names..." and St. Gabriel has a great deal of information dealing with medieval signs that read: The Vine in the Parish of St. Helen; Le Cok in Woodstreet; The Choker in the High Street; The George in Lombard; The Pye in Queenhithe; The Pye on the Hope (From Reaneys); Master Smythe of the Black Eye; The Sword in Flete Strete; Robert Holbenne of Greysyn; Capitio de le Bull; The Tapster House of the Dradon in Lop Lane. Guild Names which were also used for Signs to indicate the guild offices or primary meeting location from period include such noted names as: The Company of Coopers of Norwich; The Cobblers of Caimbridge; The Armorers of York; The guilds frequently identified themselves by Trade and then by town so as not to be confused with any other guild of the similar trade. As indicated in the order names listed, this was not unusual for Orders to identify the specific location of the event after which the Order is being named so as to distinguish it from other similar feats of other countries or locations. All of these use the pattern “The of ” which is the pattern used by “Archers of Agincourt”. Additionally, the Guild names have the exact same pattern of “ of ” as does “Archers of Agincourt”.

Laurel Precedents:
Jaelle of Armida Branch names, names of orders and awards, heraldic titles, and household names must consist of a designator that identifies the type of entity and at least one descriptive element. Common designators are Shire, Barony, Guild, House, Order of the, and Herald. ". (LoAR June 1999)
Starkhafn, Barony of. Order name for The Order of the Sparkes of Starkhafn. Many period order names were formed from heraldic charges. Estencely is also known as a semy of sparks, so it is acceptable as an order name. (LoAR May 1999, p. 5)
Axemoor, Barony of. Order name and badge for Company of Hussars of Axemoor. Submitted as an order name for Hussars of Axemoor, it lacked a designator. We have added the designator acceptable to the Baron in order to avoid returning the order name. (LOAR 2/98)
Da’ud ibn Auda “... Companionate of Bards, registered 4/80, and Order of the Companionate of the Bard, registered 8/87. (Talan Gwynek, LoAR March 1996, p. 4) "Order names in period seem to have been based on tangible objects (such as the Order of the Golden Fleece) or on abstract concepts which members of the Order embody (such as the Legion of Honor.)" 1994.02
Bruce Draconarius “Under current precedent, the combination of the adjective and the branch name is sufficient difference. This was ruled in the case of the Order of the Sable Lion of Caerthe (LoAR of Aug 90) ... it seems a reasonable policy to maintain. (l'Ordre du Papillon Argente d'Artemisie (Principality of Artemisia), May, 1993, pg. 2)
Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane “the name ... the Order of the Companions of the [Name]", it is legal. (LoAR 28 May 1990, p. 1)

“The Order of Archers of Agincourt” consists of a designator “Order” and the descriptive elements “Archers of Agincourt”. Further it follows the exact same naming pattern of the registered order names shown above and again below, all of which have been registered in the past 12 years, and most in the past nine years under the current naming rules. SCA Registered Order, Group and Household Names Each of these has been registered in the SCA and follows similar naming patterns to that of “Archers of Agincourt” in that it has a noun and a descriptive adjective or placename. First House of Anjou-Plantagenet, Dec 1994 (Da’ud II) Premier Bard of Ansteorra, 1990 (Alisoun) House of the Third Longship, 1973 (Karina) The Order of Sparkes of Starkhafn The Company of Hussars of Axemoor The Order of Legion of Honor The Order of Companionate of the Bard L'Ordre du Papillon Argente d'Artemisie The Order of the Companions of the [Name]

Summary We find the following two areas of commonality among these period names and many others not mentioned but nonetheless registered in period: (1) A designator such as “Order of” (2) A name, place and/or object (noun); and many contain a third element: (3) descriptive terms (adjectives) related to those nouns which is often a place or location specifically related to the noun. Therefore, it appears that period order names followed only a single naming pattern, that of such as “The Order of ” and the adjectival descriptions such as colors or locations were optional.

The wide variety of order, guild and household names listed above support this theory. The only thing they all have in common is a designator and a noun. Further, the adjectival descriptions and/or locations used have no specific pattern except to describe the noun which is why there are so many different names. There are (1) Plain nouns: “The Order of St. Bridget”, “The Order of the Swan”, “The Order of the Thistle”, “The Order of the Porcupine”, “The Order of the Garter” (2) Dual nouns: “The Order of the Dog and Cock”, The Order of the Ship and Escallop Shell”, “The Order of the Tower and the Sword” (3) Nouns defined by colors: “The Order of the White Elephant”, “The Order of the Yellow String”, “The Order of the Golden Fleece” (4) Nouns defined by possessive terms: “The Order of the Wing of St. Michael”, “The Order of the Star of the Noble House” (5) Nouns defined by location: “The Order of Silence of Cyprus”, “The Order of the Oak of Navarre”, “The Order of the Spur of Naples” (6) Religious Nouns: “The Order of Our Lady of Bethlehem”, “The Order of the Holy Ghost”, “The Order of the Brothers of the Jubilation”, “The order of the Annunciation” (7) Simple locative nouns: “The Order of Avis”, “The Order of Calatrava” (8) Occupational nouns: “The Order of the Ladies of the Hatchet”, “The Order of the Military Hospitalers”, “The order of Hospitalers of St John of Jerusalem”

There has been discussion that the term “Archers of” may not be suitable or, in some way violates period naming practice. We disagree and see no reason to limit nouns in Order names to names of saints, heraldic charges or specific objects when we have period evidence of the use of terms such as ‘Brothers’, ‘Knights’, ‘Corps’, ‘Argonauts’, ‘Hospitalers’, ‘Swordbearers’, ‘Coopers’, ‘Cobblers’ and many others. There was further discussion that descriptive terms needed to specifically be a color and/or the noun had to be a single object of heraldic charge. But the above lists refutes that theory in its entirely in that too many of the names contain not a single color and many contain not a single object or heraldic charge. They contain names, places and objects, otherwise known as nouns; and descriptive terms (adjectives) related to those nouns. SCA registrations do not support that theory as many have not a single color, object or heraldic charge. While Cross and Panther contains heraldic charges, there are no colors, and House Belshire, House Gilbert and House Land's End contain none of the recommended items and all of these household names are registered to Citadel members, most of them in relatively recent years. Therefore, the theory that an order name must have a color, saint’s name, or heraldic charge is not supported by any of the lists or examples shown above. Lastly, there is nothing in either the RfS, period order naming practices, or SCA precidence that states or indicates in any way that an Order Name cannot be named after a famous battle, include the occupational noun “Archers” or the locative adjective “Of Agincourt:” in honor of that battle. In point of fact, everything listed supports this submission in its entirety.

Therefore, based both on the above-listed period names and the information contained in the RfS, that the standard construction pattern of a period Order name is "Order of the Noun" or "Order of the Adjective Noun" or "Order of the Noun of the ". The Order of the Archers of Agincourt follows the standard period naming pattern and that required by the RfS in that it has (1) A designator “The Order of” (2) A noun “The Archers” (3) A descriptive term/location “of Agincourt” Consequently, we respectfully submit that “The Order of the Archers of Agincourt” is a viable order name with period order name construction that follows the naming pattern requirements of the RfS and many SCA registrations for order and household names over the past years.

Thank you for your time.

I count 1 new Order name and a check to Laurel for $4.
In Service, THL Pendar the Bard, Rampart Herald

September 2002 LoAR Results
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